MT Clinch

[sanjuro_ronin]

don't block the knee
unless of course you are fighting me



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05Y2TTcxlts

Like I said, there are times you have no choice, that's when you learn HOW to fight off that "block".

[lkfmdc]

There are like three problems with more people trying to learn to clinch

1) Most people are not learning the real Muay Thai clinch game, it is alive and well in Thailand and pretty much non existant outside of Thailand....

2) Once you learn the real Muay Thai clinch, understand it's CONTEXT. It is NOT for wrestling and throwing. It is for STRIKING. It is for striking in a context where throws and takedowns are not only not used, they are actually illegal

3) For the most part, those with great Muay Thai "plaam" (clinch) and those with advanced wrestling skills (Free Style and greco Roman) are on different sides of the planet (metaphorically speaking).... you can learn one or the other but not an integrated package...

There are NO contradictions with the two facets, just lack of appreciation of how they fit together and WHY... I was fortunately to learn stuff from people who did a lot of the leg work already for me Randy Couture, Greg Nelson and Erik Paulson, also a coach from OSU who was a roomate and training partner of Mark Coleman

[Kellen Bassette]

1) Most people are not learning the real Muay Thai clinch game, it is alive and well in Thailand and pretty much non existant outside of Thailand....

I think there is as much fake MT as Kung Fu in the states. Just look at the youtube videos where 90% totally butcher the word for clinch, makes me think they just read it somewhere.....

[Kymus]

I think there is as much fake MT as Kung Fu in the states. Just look at the youtube videos where 90% totally butcher the word for clinch, makes me think they just read it somewhere.....

I have to agree.

I tried finding a MT video to explain a movement and all I saw was crummy MMA wanna-be MT. I was like WTF

oh, and apparently kiddies on youtube are all experts in MT now. Just like they are in BJJ.......

[Kellen Bassette]

I have to agree.

I tried finding a MT video to explain a movement and all I saw was crummy MMA wanna-be MT. I was like WTF

oh, and apparently kiddies on youtube are all experts in MT now. Just like they are in BJJ.......

Seems like every Karate Mc Dojo and "American Kick Boxing" class now offers Muay Thai. Just teach the round house with the shin and throw in some knees and elbows. There, we know Muay Thai.

[Yum Cha]

There are like three problems with more people trying to learn to clinch

1) Most people are not learning the real Muay Thai clinch game, it is alive and well in Thailand and pretty much non existant outside of Thailand....

2) Once you learn the real Muay Thai clinch, understand it's CONTEXT. It is NOT for wrestling and throwing. It is for STRIKING. It is for striking in a context where throws and takedowns are not only not used, they are actually illegal

3) For the most part, those with great Muay Thai "plaam" (clinch) and those with advanced wrestling skills (Free Style and greco Roman) are on different sides of the planet (metaphorically speaking).... you can learn one or the other but not an integrated package...

There are NO contradictions with the two facets, just lack of appreciation of how they fit together and WHY... I was fortunately to learn stuff from people who did a lot of the leg work already for me Randy Couture, Greg Nelson and Erik Paulson, also a coach from OSU who was a roomate and training partner of Mark Coleman

David, do you think the MT Clinch opens you up to being head butted?

[lkfmdc]

David, do you think the MT Clinch opens you up to being head butted?

as I learned it we alway addressed the possibility, I think about 40 years ago it was still LEGAL in the ring... nothing if "fool proof" (and being a fool I know of what I speak!)

[Yum Cha]

as I learned it we alway addressed the possibility, I think about 40 years ago it was still LEGAL in the ring... nothing if "fool proof" (and being a fool I know of what I speak!)

Is some bloke with an English, Aussie or Islander accent talks smack to you, be warned!

There's a fundamental rule, any time someone grabs you, that hand is leaving an opening it can't block.

[lkfmdc]

Is some bloke with an English, Aussie or Islander accent talks smack to you, be warned!

There's a fundamental rule, any time someone grabs you, that hand is leaving an opening it can't block.

you never say my sifu bust bricks with his head?

[Pork Chop]

MT clinch nonexistent outside of Thailand?
Dunno if I agree with that one, but then almost all my MT coaches have been Thai (or Lao), except for Khun Kao who trained under Master K and my coach in Fort Worth who trained directly under Jongsanan. I'm certified under the guy that's largely responsible for Kevin Ross and Chaz Mulkey (ie Ajaan Nop) and I was able to hang in the clinch against one of Saeksan's students, so I have faith in what I'm learning.

MT clinch not for throws?
Well not for any type of shooting throws, hip throws, or pickups, but there are definitely a lot of trips. Just watch highlights of Saenchai.

Burmese Leithwei allows headbutts and I think they're allowed in the bareknuckle Burma vs Thailand fights, so they're part of the old stuff.

I see this weird phenomenon of Tae Kwon Do schools claiming muay thai as well as people with TKD backgrounds in mma claiming muay thai.

[Shaolin Rasta]

Now, I know I'm outside my normal domain here, in fact I don't post that often in these forums, but I read them a lot. I just have a small observation. In my limited experience with full contact fighting and from sparring various types of martial artists including some mt guys, mmaers and wrestlers (quite a while ago!), I've found that simply keeping blows raining on them when they try to clinch, wrestle me, etc. was very effective. In the first image shown on this thread, and most of the clips, why can't simply hooking hard to the ribs or under the armpit and then maybe up to the head be an effective deterrent to trying to clinch my head with both hands?
I used to do something like that anytime someone tried to grab me with both hands. As soon as they try to reach out to me, I start peppering them strong to the face. Also tight uppercuts seem like a good way to go. Also, instead of just blocking with both hands for the knee strikes, I like to use the point of my elbow down onto the top of their knee and then uppercut to chin. A lot of times they would be discouraged to use those knees once my elbow had point struck the top of the knee near the kneecap. But like I said, I'm not a true hard core mma style fighter. Just my observations based on a little fighting experience.

[Frost]

Now, I know I'm outside my normal domain here, in fact I don't post that often in these forums, but I read them a lot. I just have a small observation. In my limited experience with full contact fighting and from sparring various types of martial artists including some mt guys, mmaers and wrestlers (quite a while ago!), I've found that simply keeping blows raining on them when they try to clinch, wrestle me, etc. was very effective. In the first image shown on this thread, and most of the clips, why can't simply hooking hard to the ribs or under the armpit and then maybe up to the head be an effective deterrent to trying to clinch my head with both hands?
I used to do something like that anytime someone tried to grab me with both hands. As soon as they try to reach out to me, I start peppering them strong to the face. Also tight uppercuts seem like a good way to go. Also, instead of just blocking with both hands for the knee strikes, I like to use the point of my elbow down onto the top of their knee and then uppercut to chin. A lot of times they would be discouraged to use those knees once my elbow had point struck the top of the knee near the kneecap. But like I said, I'm not a true hard core mma style fighter. Just my observations based on a little fighting experience.

Hooks to the body and head and upper cuts are fine once you have established a base, BUT the problem is to throw those punches you need space and space is also what he want to knee you, and a knee to the face beats a hook to the body normally. And it also require a solid base which the other guy is going to try like hell to remove so he can knee you cleanly, hes not going to just stand their and knee, he is snapping down, pushing and pulling, stepping and turning you all the time looking to off balance you and then knee.

Most guys with clinching skills reach with one hand first and have one hand up guarding and will be applying pressure to bend you over before the second hand comes out, so punching them on the way in isn’t so easy, or they will seek the clinch at the end of a combination or on the way back from throwing a wide hook, they normally wont try it straight off the bat so you will be defending punches and get clinched before you can react

Likewise they will seek to bury your head in their chest and hide their head either to the side (my preference) or on top of your head, making upper cuts hard and reducing the power you can put in your hooks to the head
when they hide their head to the side as in the pic someone else posted they reduce exposure to the hook (basically hiding half their head) and also tempt you to throw the hook to the side of the head they have left exposed in order to open your ribs up to knees (this makes headpeels etc easier for the guy defending but also opens up taking their back so as always their are pro and cons to everything)
blocking with the elbows is ok (we do that alot in the hakka arts) but again its not a static position most guys wont knee when you are set and have a base under you to defend from, they are snapping you down stepping and turning you etc in order to reduce your ability to brace and defend and punch back, thats one of the reasons shutting the hips down works: its a quick movement that you don’t really need to be set to do and can limit their ability to move you: punching them, elbowing their legs all require a firm base under you and a Thai guy is not going to allow you to keep that base, better to get good structure and work a escape than try to trade with someone in a superior position

[lkfmdc]

MT clinch nonexistent outside of Thailand?
Dunno if I agree with that one, but then almost all my MT coaches have been Thai (or Lao), except for Khun Kao who trained under Master K and my coach in Fort Worth who trained directly under Jongsanan. I'm certified under the guy that's largely responsible for Kevin Ross and Chaz Mulkey (ie Ajaan Nop) and I was able to hang in the clinch against one of Saeksan's students, so I have faith in what I'm learning.

irony! Because I'd say some of the few people teaching real Muay Thai here in the US include Jonsanan and Nop.... and being two of my friends are Jeremy Bellrose (under Jongsanan) and Kevin Ross....

MT clinch not for throws?
Well not for any type of shooting throws, hip throws, or pickups, but there are definitely a lot of trips. Just watch highlights of Saenchai.

According to the black and white rules of the Thailand Boxing Board, a lot of what Saenchai does is actually illegal, but he's Saenchai (and the Thais have never been consistent)

Technically speaking all Muay THai movements are "unbalances" not "throws"

[Kellen Bassette]

I see this weird phenomenon of Tae Kwon Do schools claiming muay thai as well as people with TKD backgrounds in mma claiming muay thai.

You've noticed that too?

Tying up with someone with poor clinching skills isn't uncomfortable at all, but a good clinch is a real sucky place to find yourself in.

[Kellen Bassette]

According to the black and white rules of the Thailand Boxing Board, a lot of what Saenchai does is actually illegal, but he's Saenchai (and the Thais have never been consistent)

Technically speaking all Muay THai movements are "unbalances" not "throws"

That's interesting, I've been told you can't throw from "bear hug" in modern MT; but in Thailand we were drilling this move as a ring technique. I also saw it published in a book under modern ring techniques.

Maybe it's open to some interpretation with what techs they let slide? I know they made me work the toss from "bear hug" but hollered at me whenever I used a hip toss....

Of course if you got the balls to do handstand kicks like Saenchai, you should be allowed to do anything.....