MT Clinch

[mickey]

Greetings,

Kymus, even after the spin, you can still forward rush. If you are totally exhausted to begin with, I would understand the level of control you describe. Until then, make him earn that clinch. From a life/death perspective, the clincher leaves much open to attack

mickey

[mantis7]

At 2.45, look at their arms. Do you think the person could actually twist while being controlled to pull off a headlock? Both their arms are raised, to actually trap both his arms would be dam near impossible.

He still has control and can control the neck. If he was even close to applying the headlock all it would take is a simple back step and the lock would not be applied.

[Kymus]

Greetings,

Kymus, even after the spin, you can still forward rush. If you are totally exhausted to begin with, I would understand the level of control you describe. Until then, make him earn that clinch. From a life/death perspective, the clincher leaves much open to attack

mickey

Based on my MT experience, I'd disagree Mickey. Generally in MT, the clinch leads to a skip knee and then we throw the opponent and follow up immediately with a round kick.

I'm really not sure how this leaves the attacker open. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean when you say forward rush?

[Kymus]

2:45 is closer to what I learned as to a proper clinch. We never were taught to pull them down and knee the face. Skip knees were always to the abdomen or the side.

When we clinch, it's a very tight movement; elbows are tucked in and our head rests to one side of the clinch with the chin fully tucked in.

[Kymus]

Just wanted to clarify... despite my disagreements with almost everything suggested as a workaround to the MT clinch, I'm not one of those dudes that thinks MT is teh ultimatez stand up art.

I've just spent a good deal of time with it and I feel like there's a disconnect between MT and non-MT. I think a lot of the movements aren't well understood and are poorly implemented outside of MT.

[YouKnowWho]

At 2.45, look at their arms. Do you think the person could actually twist while being controlled to pull off a headlock? Both their arms are raised, to actually trap both his arms would be dam near impossible.

He still has control and can control the neck. If he was even close to applying the headlock all it would take is a simple back step and the lock would not be applied.

IMO, it's very easy to do so. Wrestling 101 tells us if your opponent want to

- bend his arms, you can help him to bend more.
- straight his arms, you can help him to straight more.

You can do in 2 steps:

step 1: use your "outside" left hand to pin on top of your opponent's elbow joing and pull his right fore-arm to touch your left chest. This can prevent your opponent from pulling his arm back, It can also squeeze the space betwee your left side and your opponent's right side. As showing in this picture.

http://imageshack.us/a/img847/1613/armcontrol.jpg

step 2: Now you don't care whether your opponent may pull his left arm back or not. If he does, you lock his head and keep his left arm to be outside of your right arm. If he doesn't, you lock his head along with his left arm. As long as your right hand can wrap around his head and grab on top of his right upper arm, your head lock is completed.

If there is

- a gap between 2 rocks, the water will run "between" it.
- no gap between 2 rocks, the water will run "around" it.

1. The clinch is situated for a quick release when countered. To apply the head lock your speed would need to exceed the speed of your opponents letting go of his clasped hands.

Not if you pin your opponent's arm (since your hand is outside) so he can't pull his arm back.

http://imageshack.us/a/img847/1613/armcontrol.jpg

[mickey]

Hi Kymus,

When you introduce the clinch as part of a combination, I understand your point of view. I have actually seen that. I have also seen the clinch done as a dead hold before those combos took place. That was what I was reacting to. Rushing as in charging forward, forcing the guy to use his legs to root instead of striking. In street combatives there are gouges, etc. that come immediately into play (this is from the dead holding perspective). From the way you describe it, again, the hold is part of a combination. I do not know if that the model YouKnowWho intended to present.

Good Night Y'all,

mickey

[YouKnowWho]

If your guys went to a MMA gym and applied this strategy then I am comfortable in saying that they were trying it against individuals to inexperienced to know how to get out of it. the individual panicked or didn't know what the hell they were doing.

You don't know my guys experience. It's not fair to say that because their head lock work was because their opponents were weak. As far as I know, both MMA gyms have both MT coach and wrestling coach.

Both of my guys have over 12 years grappling experience. The head lock and clinch are their bread and butter. Not too many people can get out of their strong head lock.

[YouKnowWho]

Finally we got something interest for discussion. It's more fun to discuss some real combat skill than just to talk about "Shaolin boxing before 1780". Let's all share our difference experiences here.

Allow me to say that a strong head lock is not that easy to develop. After you have developed it, you will have a lot of advantage.

The MT clinch is no different from no-jacket Chinese wrestling clinch. The difference is in Chinese wrestling, you will only use one hand to control the back of your opponent's neck. It's called "mantis arm". The other hand is used to control your opponent's arm.

At 0.04, the wrestling clinch is better clinch than the MT clinch. At least you have controlled one of your opponent's arms and not allow both of your opponent's arms to be free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Ntf...&feature=share

[wenshu]

There's a lot more to Thai clinch than the plum

[YouKnowWho]

There's a lot more to Thai clinch than the plum

Of course clinch is a complicate subject. You can even write a book about it. It includes at least 30 different principles. The "head lock" is #26 環(Huan) – Neck surrounding.

http://imageshack.us/a/img822/7828/headlock.jpg

1. 撕(Si) - Tearing
2. 崩(Beng) - Cracking
3. 捅(Tong) - Striking push
4. 褪(tun) - Hand pushing
5. 肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing

6. 蓋(Gai) - Covering hands
7. 攞(Lou)- Pulling hands
8. 搖(Yao) - Body-shaking hands
9. 捯(Dao) - Reverse arm-holding
10. 抖(Dou) – Shaking

11. 分(Fen) - Separate hands
12. 掖(Ye) - Hand tucking
13. 引(Yin) - Arm guiding
14. 捧(Peng) - Arm raising
15. 架(Jia) - Elbow Locking

16. 圈(Quan) – Under hook
17. 抄(Chao) - Over hook
18. 抹(Mo) - Wiping
19. 偏(Pian) – Head circling
20. 夾(Jia) – Clamping head

21. 摘(Zai) – Helmet removing
22. 摀(Wu) – Face covering
23. 速(Su) – Forehead push
24. 墬(Zhui) - Sticking drop
25. 撈 (Lao) – Leg seize

26. 環(Huan) – Neck surrounding
27. 托(Tuo) – Chin pushing
28. 封(Feng) – Throat/waist blocking
29. 撒(Sa) - Casting
30. 飄(Piao) - Floating hand

[Frost]

Finally we got something interest for discussion. It's more fun to discuss some real combat skill than just to talk about "Shaolin boxing before 1780". Let's all share our difference experiences here.

Allow me to say that a strong head lock is not that easy to develop. After you have developed it, you will have a lot of advantage.

The MT clinch is no different from no-jacket Chinese wrestling clinch. The difference is in Chinese wrestling, you will only use one hand to control the back of your opponent's neck. It's called "mantis arm". The other hand is used to control your opponent's arm.

At 0.04, the wrestling clinch is better clinch than the MT clinch. At least you have controlled one of your opponent's arms and not allow both of your opponent's arms to be free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Ntf...&feature=share

the thai chinch as you call it is very different because the aim is to control and hit and not throw, and as wenshu pointed out the thai clinch is not just the double neck tie

a better clinch for what exactly? striking, throwing?? horses for courses but i will say this the thai clinch gives you superior position, the wrestling tie up you posted is a 50/50 position both control the neck and the arm, i was told by my wrestling coach to avoid this position if at all possible and seek a position which gives me cotrol and takes it away from my opponent, single neck tie and inside bicep or wrist control etc


and im sorry this will not work because he has both inside control and superior body position, structurally he is in a much better position, now before its locked in or as he reaches for it maybe but otherwise once locked in the guy will be ragging you around like a doll once the plum is locked in and kneeing the crap out of you you will be too busy defending the knees and trying to regain structure to d something like that

[YouKnowWho]

he has both inside control and superior body position, structurally he is in a much better position,

Wrestling 101 tells us if your opponent want to

- bend his arms, you can help him to bend more.
- straight his arms, you can help him to straight more.

The wrestling is not MT guy's strong point but wrester's bread and butter. During a clinch is formed (this is exactly what a wrestler is looking for), whether a MT guy can knee the wrestler to death, or the wrestler can take the MT guy down, nobody will know it for sure.

the guy will be ragging you around like a doll ...

I have only seen a wrestler shakes a non-wrestler. I have never seen "shaking" is used by non-wrestler. To assume a non-wrestler knows how to use shaking better than a wrestler is not part of my personal experience.

8. 搖(Yao) - Body-shaking hands (circular shaking)
10. 抖(Dou) – Shaking (linear shaking)

[Frost]

Wrestling 101 tells us if your opponent want to

- bend his arms, you can help him to bend more.
- straight his arms, you can help him to straight more.

The wrestling is not MT guy's strong point but wrester's bread and butter. During a clinch is formed (this is exactly what a wrestler is looking for), whether a MT guy can knee the wrestler to death, or the wrestler can take the MT guy down, nobody will know it for sure.


I have only seen a wrestler shakes a non-wrestler. I have never seen "shaking" is used by non-wrestler. To assume a non-wrestler knows how to use shaking better than a wrestler is not part of my personal experience.

8. 搖(Yao) - Body-shaking hands (circular shaking)
10. 抖(Dou) – Shaking (linear shaking)

101 wrestling says inside control is where you want to be and thats what the thai guy has

Im making assumptions...., you are the one calling a thai boxer a non wrestler have you studied thai boxing and if so for how long? The clinch is a huge part of thai boxing it includes double neck tie, single neck tie, underhooks overhooks, bicep and wrist control, it included bodylocks and sweeps, although throws arent scored they are used to weaken the opponent

Of course if you want to post clips of yourself or your students doing this against trained thai boxers (not each other) then we can see what you mean

[YouKnowWho]

We may share different experience here. I have seen a MT guy learned wrestling from a wrestler. I have not seen a wrestler learned wrestling from a MT guy.

My guys have worked on the following moves for quite some times by now.

3. Head lock, outer twist, against double neck tie
4. Reverse head lock, front cut, against double neck tie

If I can find a sparring/wrestling partner here, I will create a clip of my own. I have sent an E-mail to ask one of my guys to create such clip in his MMA gym. I can't promise 100% for sure. Here is the E-mail that I have sent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Pat:

Could you make me a short clip by using head lock outer leg twist (or leg block) to deal with a MT clinch?

John