SLT & Sam Chien

[sanjuro_ronin]

Does Hung Ga's "Iron Wire" form more closely resemble San Chien than SLT?

San Chien is to IW what checkers is to chess.

[anerlich]

I too have learned a version of San Chien which I believe was White Crane based.

IMHO, while some could argue the stance has some similarities with YGKYM, I think there is little commonality with Wing Chun.

[Paul T England]

Ok so how is it a different engine?

Are they not different versions of the same engine? (your body)

whatever you do you will need rooting, centred movement, the correct balance of reaxation and tension, Yi or intention.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Minghequan]

SanZhan Ba Xian Zhang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5MzukAcL0Q

White Crane SanZhan & Gojuryu? White Crane SanZhan & Karate? No connection! Completely different energies, structure and applications!

Ngo Chu Kun & Gojuryu/Karate ... Yes.

Tiger SanZhan & Karate/Uechiryu ... Yes.

White Crane ... No!

[guy b.]

SanZhan Ba Xian Zhang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5MzukAcL0Q

White Crane SanZhan & Gojuryu? White Crane SanZhan & Karate? No connection! Completely different energies, structure and applications!

Ngo Chu Kun & Gojuryu/Karate ... Yes.

Tiger SanZhan & Karate/Uechiryu ... Yes.

White Crane ... No!

Interesting, you don't feel that the various permutations of this form don't attempt to do the same kind of thing?

[Minghequan]

Thats right! I don't believe they are all on the same page as the White Crane SanZhan (Babulian) .... I can cite numerous aspects of this but it really comes down to the internal concepts, principles and essence .... White Crane is very, very different from Karate's Sanchin and nothing at all like SLT.

[guy b.]

Thats right! I don't believe they are all on the same page as the White Crane SanZhan (Babulian) .... I can cite numerous aspects of this but it really comes down to the internal concepts, principles and essence .... White Crane is very, very different from Karate's Sanchin and nothing at all like SLT.

I should say that I don't really believe in internal aspects that don't have an obvious physical explanation. Bearing this in mind (if you don't mind), could you highlight a few of the differences please, for example differences in underlying principles?

[Hendrik]

Thats right! I don't believe they are all on the same page as the White Crane SanZhan (Babulian) .... I can cite numerous aspects of this but it really comes down to the internal concepts, principles and essence .... White Crane is very, very different from Karate's Sanchin and nothing at all like SLT.

Ron,

I agree with you.


Since you are a researcher and know Chinese,
As for wing chun siu Lin tau vs sanzhan, i have made the following Chinese language YouTube to identify what is the engine of siu Lin tau, where is siu Lin tau adapted white crane where adapted emei , why and how siu Lin tau engine is different to white crane, and the characteristics of Wck Jin while doing suck and split. Based on ancient writings of wck.

These YouTube ate in chinese because they are intended for pro Chinese martial art and history experts ie Gm Lee Kong and other gm in asia, and your reacher group class . To clearlify wck DNA and slt.

As you might have known, gm Lee Kong has agreed with wck core in the snake body crane limps DNA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc3JxHO5q90
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=a4PD3...feature=relmfu

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thats right! I don't believe they are all on the same page as the White Crane SanZhan (Babulian) .... I can cite numerous aspects of this but it really comes down to the internal concepts, principles and essence .... White Crane is very, very different from Karate's Sanchin and nothing at all like SLT.

Which White Crane Ron?

[Minghequan]

Which White Crane? Well I do Minghe so I can talk a little (very little!) about it but I have only seen the other (Flying, Feeding, Shaking etc) even so, I don't see it in their versions of the form either but then that's just me and I am a person of little knowledge and even less skill in such things.

Many cite Minghe as being the style that influenced Gojuryu. If this is true why doon't we see Minghe forms transplanted or at least taught in a modified form within Goju??? Okay Goju has a Sanchin which is more aligned to Ngo Cho Kun then Minghe ... read Alex Co's book on this very similarities. It's said that Tensho is based on the Bubishi's Rokkishu ... not a Minghe form. personally I see the 6 Ji hands in Babulian but again thats just me.

[Minghequan]

I should say that I don't really believe in internal aspects that don't have an obvious physical explanation. Bearing this in mind (if you don't mind), could you highlight a few of the differences please, for example differences in underlying principles?

Guy,

Neither do I ... Internals are just higher expressions of knowledge manifested in the body (physical). So we agree here.

Some examples with the physical in mind???

1/. “Small Lady Steps” or the “Crane Stepping in a Marsh” - "Kunyan-pu" . The concept that underpins our style in this area is the stepping method. Vastly different from that seen in Sanchin Kata. The Crane Steps in a Marsh see's the feet brought up in a type of Knee/Leg check or block (Hidden Kicks) and then planted down with the rear foot taking up the distance and connecting to the ground (root) via a form of what we term "bicycle stepping" a type of double weighting. In Sanchin the steps are circular, held closer to the ground and static almost rigidly connected to the ground, not free moving (Bicycle Stepping). Stances are always in motion, constantly searching the earth for ground-reaction-energy in a manner similar to riding a bicycle. Lihn Bouh (Continuous Stepping) … an ever-changing relationship between the Yin and the Yang. This type of stepping is extremely natural and allows the practitioner the opportunity of being able to change direction and stances quickly and in a natural and fluid manner. This type of movement is similar in many ways to riding a bicycle or skating. Crane-Fist movements are done fast, with rapid advancement or withdrawal and body-shifting. The fighter is constantly moving. His/her footwork both confuses his attacker and provides openings. The “Tiger Waist Kunyan-Pu" circular step-method designed to protect the lower body whilst moving forward. Also used as a leg attack & Body-Change motion. The lead foot takes a half step forward (1.), this is then followed by the rear foot arcing in a inwards and high circular fashion (2.) and then continuing forwards (3.) until; it takes up the stance (4.) at which time the rear foot shuffles forward slightly and then presses to the ground (4.) as depicted in the series of actions shown above. Dow Ma – Which is an entering motion on an angle as well as for advancing or retreating quickly bridging ground. Used primarily when making a Body-Change in relation to an opponents acts of aggression. Bik Bouh - Rear foot slides up to front foot and "kicks" it forward used in rapid attacking motions to advance forward and bridge the gap between the practitioner and opponent.

2/. Jin (劲) or the internal martial energy. Shaking White Crane is also known as ZongHe in Fuzhou dialect. “Zong” means “to shake off”. In order to shake when striking the opponent, you need this shaking style of force. The Jin in Shaking White Crane is a stream of powerful spring-like internal energy enabling you to strike and penetrate during a close range fight. When touched by this Shaking White Crane Jin, your opponent will have a feeling of being shocked by the lightening.

3/. The use of the voice in martial arts can be found in most any style of martial art throughout the world. It manifests itself as the "Kiai" in Okinawan/Japanese arts or白鶴鳴叫Báihè míngjiào (“Crane Call”)

In Chinese arts. It is one of the most used expressions of breath and breathing/yelling seen in the martial arts. The use of the voice is said to unify one's body, mind and spirit together for a single combative purpose.
The spirit yell is also used for raising one's spirit and healing one's own body or the body of another.

The use of the Báihè míngjiào in Chinese martial arts refers to the emission of different sounds for the purpose of a strike to a vulnerable area of the body, healing another or raising ones own spirit. It is associated with the theories of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM)and the expression of Qi.

The use of sound and breath can add between 40 percent and 100 percent more energy to a given technique provided the correct intent is also there. A perfectly executed Báihè míngjiào in White Crane can add energy to the technique then just the technique on its own.

In all there are 6 sounds, the base theory behind sound is that the healing or hurting technique becomes more effective when one emits the appropriate sound.

Lets look at the sounds used in our White Crane Boxing as seen within the White Crane Research Institute:

The “Hen” Sound:
One way of making or utilizing the “Hen” sound is when you are exhaling. This is classified as being positive (Yang) but with an element of Yin; as with all things martial, a balance is desirable.This noise or spirit yell is used in an attack where you do not want to express all the Jing outwards. The second and probably most important manifestation of the “Hen” sound is used when inhaling. In this case it is pure Yin and used when applying a yielding, neutralizing or retreating type of move. It is alos used to store the Spirit, condensing it into your body and bones. When making the “Hen” sound condense the Qi to your spine and lead the Qi from the bottom of the feet up to the Dan Tien. The “Hen” sound is Yin or negative and hlps the Qi flow back to the body. One should have a feeling of calming ones’ spirit and bringing energy in to the body with the “Hen” sound.

The “Ha” & “Ho” Sound:
The “Ha” and “Ho” sound is strong with Yang and thusly positive in its energy manifestation. It’s mostly used in attacking the opponent. This sound raises one’s Spirit of Vitality to its highest level enabling the Qi to support the Jing in attacking.When you exhale with the “Ha” or “Ho” sound one should feel a strong flow of Qi in the palms which you may experience as warmth and a almost electric tingling sensation. Your Yi (mind) must extend deep into the opponent in order to make use of the “Ha” or “Ho” sound. This allows the Qi to flow without hesitation. Your Yi (mind) will then support your palm in the deliverance of the intended strike. When you make the “Ha” or “Ho” sound the Qi should be directed in the same direction as the sound with a second flow down to the Dan Tian and feet. Many Open hand forms are Yang (positive) and even though performed in a balnced fashion the “Ha” or “Ho” sound is used to express the energy. When you make the “Ha” or “Ho” sound the Qi Sinks and then is directed via the attacking weapons and the body is rooted to the ground. It is used with a short powerful pulse of energy.

The “He” Sound:
The “He” sound is most commonly used in attacking along with that of the “Ha” Sound. The power expression is rounded and not straight in as with the “Ha” sound. It is known in TCM as regulating ones heart.

The “Hei” Sound:
“Hei” is used to regulate the lungs and used both in inhalation and exhalation. It is used to clear ones lungs and increase the intake of air into the body This short sound is also used to generate power in the arms and body and is seen is such movements as “White Crane Drawing Back the Neck” seen in our senior forms.

The “Sa” Sound:
“Sa’ is a deadly serious sound in White Crane Boxing as it is the sound of death. It is used to raise ones’ killing spirit or intent, when a technique is applied with the sound of “Sa” it is penetrating and the spirit is held high.

The “Hu” Sound:
The final sound to be looked at here is that of “Hu” which is mainly used to relax the body, lungs and spirit after a fight or forms practice. The “Hu” sound is used in TCM and Qigong to regulate the spleen. The sounds must come from the Dan Tien and not the throat.

The Chinese White Crane art known as “Calling Crane” is but one of the Chinese Gongfu art to use sounds in the execution of its techniques and forms. In this art sounds are used to energise the body with Qi and to emit or transmit Qi in to a given strike or series of strikes.

The SanZhan makes use of these sounds to bring the aspects of the body together (rooting, muscular tension and relaxation, song, movement, intent and technique), the mind (focus, perception and intent) and Spirit (breathing, Development of Qi, expression or transmission of Qi.

SanZhan trains the Triple Warmer Meridian. The inhalation of the breath draws in and stores energy while the exhalation trains the 3 warmers and expresses the QiThese three warmers are covered by the use of specific sounds. The "Ho" sound trains the upper warmer (from the nipple line to the top of the head). The "Hen" sound trains the middle warmer (from the nipple line to the Dantien) and the use of the Sa" sound trains the lower warmer (from the Dantien to the feet) and is also considered to be a "Killing Sound" when used in attack.

This use of breathing trains the governor, the conception and midline or "belt" Vessels.

The basic theory behind the use of sounds in the martial and healing arts is that the healing or hurting techniques become more effective when one emits the appropriate sound behind the movement being executed.

There is a saying in White Crane"Du pi ruan ru mian, du nei ying ru tie" This roughly translates as: "The skin of the surface of the belly is as soft as cotton wool while the inside of the belly is as hard as an iron block".

This means the White Crane art believes in soft, lasting and even breathing. When breathing in, the Dan Tian contracts and when breathing out the Dan Tain area is loose and Qi flushes in the area. This kind of breathing works the belly/stomach muscles and makes them hard, while when the belly goes loose it is then very soft. Being hard or soft is the influence of the Qi.

[Minghequan]

More ...........

SanZhan benefits within a Practical Application View & Context:

SanZhan seeks to embody the essence of personal Life-Protection and the generation of a very high level of energy:

• The use of stance to generate power Stance is usually the “San Jiao Ma” or triangular stance. This is almost the same stance found in many Tai Chi Forms. Jin is, as a rule, launched by the rear leg. Fajin at this level is the highly exaggerated rear-leg exploding motion that is very obvious. This is a good example of our "ground reaction" Jin training in Fuzhou Crane. We 'push" our Jin into the ground and "bounce" off using the reaction.

• SanZhan is a water element form mainly because of the Jin that one seeks to train when doing this form. “Shui Lan” or “Water Wave” Jin is the main aim of training in this form. It is a similar to the silk cocoon jin that you'll find in Taiji except that there is a more ‘rolling’ type of movement to express the Jin.

• The application of Sanzhan is to be found more in the hand movements. If you observe the “hands cycle” portion of the form, you should be able to detect the 5 Elements (Wu Xing Shou) sequence. This element cycle changes from style to style so it is of little use to go into this deeper just here but I will touch upon the concept elsewhere within this syllabus and exploration.

• SanZhan teaches one how to fight in terms of touch and go with little pause in between. You see this concept in action in all our forms, applications and techniques. One application of this energy is to pull both palms in (palms inward) and release Jin instantly palms out. Look at SanZhan and you will see this action repeated many times. The whole idea is to stay relaxed and using the pulling in to generate the thrusting out reaction.

• And this is also how we push and strike - Jin applied in the hind leg to generate the reactive ground Jin that we direct to our hands. This is very effective if you crouch a little and then straighten your body to achieve the upwards thrust lift. A little like in Tai Chi less obvious in expression.

• The energy is mainly generated by twisting of the hips with the body staying relaxed. The descriptive poem is “Body like a willow, hands like bullets”. “Shen Ru Yang Liu, Shou Ru Tan”

• Elbow – My system uses the elbow in many “bridge” smashing techniques. Naturally hard at the tip makes it a good breaking tool. The breaking is done is many ways. I am going to talk about one for illustration – a beginner’s technique. Against an incoming upper gate attack to your face, you apply a Palm deflection with one hand and smash the attacker’s hand with your other elbow. A good target is the inner side of the arm behind the thumb area – the earth point of the heart meridian. Or the outside behind the little finger – along the small intestine meridian.

The Palm and elbow in must be timed together. Or if you meet a high sweep kick to your face area, like a Muay Thai kick, you could elbow the instep area of the foot instead of blocking.

• The Palm comes in many forms. The back palm is a whipping and slapping out weapon. This is often times aimed at upper gate at the eyes. The idea it to “attack east and hit the west” In Crane, you attack the upper and kick the groin or other lower points in one go.

[Minghequan]

And .....

I’ve been asked about my position on the origin of Karate. I firmly do not believe that Karate can be traced back to Fuzhou cranes because most Karate folks have little inkling or none at all about this elemental He Quan Quan Jue.

It is clearly reflected in how they move.

The usual “swallowing, spitting, sinking and floating” that you hear about is really more Fukien, like in Fukien White Crane, Ngo Chor, Tai Chor etc and Shaolin.

Fuzhou Crane on the other hand has got the additional “internal” aspect. This is manifested in all our techniques, principles and Fist Poems.

In Fuzhou Crane, we are taught that techniques are just but a manifestation of our fighting principles. Forms are the ways and not the ends. Every drills / forms and 2 man sets are designed to teach the body to behave in a certain manner during a fight. Of course the whole idea is to mimic a crane.

Fuzhou White Crane is not "Karate" nor is it related to "Hakutsuru."

Many within the martial arts world state that there exists a link from Okinawan Karate to that of Fuzhou White Crane but nothing could be further from the truth.
Fuzhou White Crane as a unique art form and tradition has no verifiable link to Okinawan Karate and even less to that which is commonly termed "Hakutsuru."

Okinawans did not get their materials from Fuzhou. They may have acquired it from Fujian / Taiwan or any other part of China but not Fuzhou.

Karate researchers are better off looking at Ngo Chor (5 Elders) and Tai Chor (Grand Ancestor) rather that White Crane per se. These 2 styles are greatly influenced by Fukien White Crane and these could be their original source.

The Tiger Kung Fu is the very one that the Uechi Ryu people align themselves with.Karate contains very little White Crane. There is some Chinese connection but definitely not White Crane. Most Karate folks talk about Fuzhou White Crane but nothing they do comes close. Goju-Ryu seems more aligned to Ngo Chor. Uechi-Ryu would seem to reflect the essence of Tiger Kung Fu within its technical make-up.

Fuzhou White Crane is a totally unique art and is in no way related to modern "Crane Karate" and "Hakutsuru" as taught by other groups.

Their purported Crane kata are nothing like what we do in Fuzhou White Crane – especially in relation to fundamental root dissimilarities and not stylistics. It would seem that the only thing they obtained out of Fuzhou is the names of their katas.
As for "Hakutsuru", a few think that White Crane is just a couple of crane styles blocks and crane beak hand strikes! Much (if not all) of that passed off as "Hakutsuru" has no relation to real Fuzhou White Crane.

This is not some sort of "Crane Karate". Nor is it "Hakutsuru". This is the real art
In Fuzhou Crane, we are taught that techniques are just but a manifestation of our fighting principles. Forms are the ways and not the ends. Every drills / forms and 2 man sets are designed to teach the body to behave in a certain manner during a fight. Of course the whole idea is to mimic a Crane.

In Fuzhou Crane these are transmitted in poems-like writing. If you don't have a teacher explaining - it is going to be tough. We don’t just do forms. We also do application drills, sparring drills and conditioning drills within all the various systems.

Long-Winded I know!!! ... Just hope this shows what I am trying to say here.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Which White Crane? Well I do Minghe so I can talk a little (very little!) about it but I have only seen the other (Flying, Feeding, Shaking etc) even so, I don't see it in their versions of the form either but then that's just me and I am a person of little knowledge and even less skill in such things.

Many cite Minghe as being the style that influenced Gojuryu. If this is true why doon't we see Minghe forms transplanted or at least taught in a modified form within Goju??? Okay Goju has a Sanchin which is more aligned to Ngo Cho Kun then Minghe ... read Alex Co's book on this very similarities. It's said that Tensho is based on the Bubishi's Rokkishu ... not a Minghe form. personally I see the 6 Ji hands in Babulian but again thats just me.

That's fine and I see your POV, but it doesn't take into account the very "japanese" way that the Okinawan's "modify" their MA.
In short that adapt/modify anything to THEIR indigenous MA.
The likes of Higaonna, Miyagi, Uechi and so forth, took the sanjian they were taught and made them Okinawan.

Have you read the book "hojo undo" ?
It actually names the the CM teachers:

After a number of visits to China Kanryo Higaonna become a live-in disciple of a master known as Ryu Ru Ko by the Okinawans (his Chinese name was either Liu Lu Kung or Xie Zhonghxiang depending on the dialect/spelling used). Little is known about Ryu Ru Ko but it is generally accepted that like Wan Shin San, he was a highly skilled boxer in the Crane Fist and Ancestor Fist boxing systems. There can be no doubt however that his teachings provided the basis of the fighting tradition of Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate.

It is clear that the sanchin of Goju has elements of BOTH WuZu and Bai He.

[sanjuro_ronin]

By the way, I see more SPM in Uechi ryu than I see Tiger.
According to Uechi-ryu history, it is a combination of Tiger, Crane and Dragon BUT from what I have seen and experienced of it, it seems more dragon/SPM and tiger than crane per say.
That said, I have seen some crane that has some common element.

I am beginning to think that the view that all southern systems came from the same root system, is holding much weight.