SLT & Sam Chien

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=mWh-uhw4C9s

[guy b.]

Guy,

Neither do I ... Internals are just higher expressions of knowledge manifested in the body (physical). So we agree here.

Ok great

Some examples with the physical in mind???

Thanks for the detailed descriptions. I like the bit on stepping but you lost me with the jin, sounds, meridians and Qi stuff. I don't really understand what you are referring to in physical terms with these.

The breathing you describe sounds like reverse breathing, typically done by people undertaking intense physical exertion like weight lifting. I think the reason for doing this is that it increases abdominal pressure allowing internal bracing of musculature against things like fascia, increasing cohesiveness of the trunk and aiding muscular exertion in some directions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reverse breathing is done in all types of Okinawan sanchin.

As for the different sounds ( the same theory applies to the Iron wire in Hung Kuen), while there is some evidence that the vibrational tone of different sounds effects us differently, there is no concrete evidence of such OUTSIDE of the VERY SMALL percentage of the population that has some world class vocal cords ( opera singers for example).
That said, the emotional aspect of certain sounds is well documented.

[Minghequan]

The Stances aspect is different in Minghe compared to Karate Sanchin.

Sounds ... nowhere in Karate do I see the depth of sounds as used in Minghe.

He Quan, Quan Jue "Crane Fist, Fist Poems" Again I don't see this manifested in Karate Sanchin.

SanZhan Ba Xian Zhang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5MzukAcL0Q

[guy b.]

The Stances aspect is different in Minghe compared to Karate Sanchin.

Sounds ... nowhere in Karate do I see the depth of sounds as used in Minghe.

He Quan, Quan Jue "Crane Fist, Fist Poems" Again I don't see this manifested in Karate Sanchin.

SanZhan Ba Xian Zhang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5MzukAcL0Q

What do you see as the reason behind the sounds? Cause and effect emotional influence of particular sounds based on similarity of human brains? Or some kind of physical vibrational thing?

[Minghequan]

Me personally see it more as a form of relating sounds to Mind Intention (Xin-Yi) to manifest in the application.

[Ozzy Dave]

Hi does anyone have expeirence of Siu Lim Tao and the 3 Battles kata used in Goju and south shaolin styles?

San Jan (Saam Chien) is a widely practised form in many styles south of the Min River (MinNan).

If we are talking White Crane it originated in this area (Yong Chun) near Putian and I have some experience with the form as it pertains to White Crane from this region and around QuanZhou.

My personal opinion is that WC/VT follows the concept of a developmental form such as San Jan closer than the technical requirements of MinNan San Jan which can be even more abstract than SLT/SNT. Further, in a purely technical way what may appear as the same shape e.g. Tan Sao would be applied with more sideways and upwards force in White Crane than is typically seen in WC/VT. That being said, IMO if there is a technical link between San Jan and SLT/SNT it would be in the section where the Tan, Huen, Wu and Fook are cycled - called Saam Bai Fut in some lineages.

Again IMO, the White Crane done further north around FuZhou is markedly softer and more open than their southern counterparts where San Jan is primarily used among other things to help develop Iron skill through tension.

There is however enormous variation in how San Jan is played from style to style and even within a particular style often with many variations in choreography, approach and the amount and quality of tension.

Dave

[Hendrik]

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=R3keW...%3DR3keW8Sc9t8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc3JxHO5q90

San Jan (Saam Chien) is a widely practised form in many styles south of the Min River (MinNan).

If we are talking White Crane it originated in this area (Yong Chun) near Putian and I have some experience with the form as it pertains to White Crane from this region and around QuanZhou.

My personal opinion is that WC/VT follows the concept of a developmental form such as San Jan closer than the technical requirements of MinNan San Jan which can be even more abstract than SLT/SNT. Further, in a purely technical way what may appear as the same shape e.g. Tan Sao would be applied with more sideways and upwards force in White Crane than is typically seen in WC/VT. That being said, IMO if there is a technical link between San Jan and SLT/SNT it would be in the section where the Tan, Huen, Wu and Fook are cycled - called Saam Bai Fut in some lineages.

Again IMO, the White Crane done further north around FuZhou is markedly softer and more open than their southern counterparts where San Jan is primarily used among other things to help develop Iron skill through tension.

There is however enormous variation in how San Jan is played from style to style and even within a particular style often with many variations in choreography, approach and the amount and quality of tension.

Dave

[lance]

Hi does anyone have expeirence of Siu Lim Tao and the 3 Battles kata used in Goju and south shaolin styles?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

Paul T England , Hi , to me SLT is more of the soft chi kung excercise which comes along with self defense moves . Because of the way its been practiced by wing chun masters like the Late Wong Shun Leung , GM Wiilliam Cheung , Sifu Austine Fong .

San Chien to me is more of the hard chi kung type of excercise where you learn to breath hard as you are doing basic punches and blocks , I ' ve seen Goju Ryu karate demos that ' s why . For after all , Okinawan Karate got their influences from southern chinese martial arts . Because at one time the japanese had taken over okinawa , and at the sametime the okinawans was trading with the chinese and learning martial arts from the chinese , the okinawan martial artist had fought with those southern style of kung fu practitioners and got beaten so
that ' s why even today okinawan martial arts regardless of styles or systems has chinese flavoring in it .

[lance]

Hi does anyone have expeirence of Siu Lim Tao and the 3 Battles kata used in Goju and south shaolin styles?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

Paul , another thing I forgot to mention on my topic post reply to your topic post is that San Chien kata is the okinawans version of iron body training . Those okinawan martial artist in turn do weight training excercises that are similar to those southern chinese martial artist . There was a documentry program about the martial arts from all over the world , on the history channel , so I don ' t know if you saw it or not , but I ' ve seen it .
Very educational .

[Paul T England]

When comparing SNT and Sam Chien, people look at the stance or the outward movements but are th einternals not just the same.

The Chinese arts to me in genral are very subtle thus you don't see the obvious tension, breath etc.

Its all interesting

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Paul T England;1238550]When comparing SNT and Sam Chien, people look at the stance or the outward movements but are th einternals not just the same.

The Chinese arts to me in genral are very subtle thus you don't see the obvious tension, breath etc.

Its all interesting

Paul
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Sam Chien and siu lim tao are two completely different worlds. Wing chun is quite unique evn in the context of southern systems. IMO.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1238781]

When comparing SNT and Sam Chien, people look at the stance or the outward movements but are th einternals not just the same.

The Chinese arts to me in genral are very subtle thus you don't see the obvious tension, breath etc.

Its all interesting

Paul
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Sam Chien and siu lim tao are two completely different worlds. Wing chun is quite unique evn in the context of southern systems. IMO.

DO you think that at one point SLT was perhaps MORE like sam chien?

[Hendrik]

Slt was designed different then San chin since the beginning.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1238790]

DO you think that at one point SLT was perhaps MORE like sam chien?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1238790]

DO you think that at one point SLT was perhaps MORE like sam chien?

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I don't think so-not Ip Man's slt anyway.