Siu Lin tau

[Hendrik]

Siu Lin tau of wing chun is analogous to San chin of white crane or karate .
It is a critical training to build up the core mechanics in term of body mind, body structure, force handling, and momentum handling.


This part of the wing chun is called the body of the art. This part of the art is for develop the unique body mechanics and skill to support the Wck applications requirements. That is how the traditional Chinese martial art work. An art has to have a complete body of the art and application of the art. Missing any part will make the art partial. Modern Wck lineage might evolve differently, however, a serious question is does one still learn Wck , or one has learn something evolve away , from what Wck is based on , but taking someone view which is not fully accord to the art of Wck.


Yes, there is proper way of doing things or practicing snt, because the content of snt is well define in the past. It is a causal system to produce result. Not a freelance open sketch pad where anyone can sketch what they like. One certainly can sketch whatever they like, however, that is no longer Wck. But one's own creation .

[Hendrik]

Screwing up siu Lin tau is screwing up Wck root .

As in the history shows, in 1855 when the one set system was redesigned to become today's three sets system to train fighters for uprising, the part of training which is today's snt is transfer over almost totally. Thus, this shows the critica and important of this part of the training .

If snt is not important and not useful, it will being cut away in 1855, and not sitting there for wasting energy for past 160 years.

Not to say, NONE of any WCK player since 1900 up to this second have the experience or measure up to the 1855 Wck generation ,who involve in real life and death situation or battle , where the death count of 1855 alone is more then one million in canton. And thousands red boat members died in the battle from 1854 to the beginng of 1860 , where the red boat army were totally wipe out from the history of china. Realistically , even the famous dr. Leong jan is amature when compare with these real fighters who has to fight different style of martial art for life. But they all practice snt. That is For sure. Since either the one set system or three sets system , they practice the snt part. By evidence in the history record.


The critical issue today is majority doesn't have a good snt training but adapting to western mind set which doesn't fit into Wck model. People starting to do things as they like and evolve things as they like. Thus, some of these so called Wck are more a western boxing practice with Wck looks. Or , on the other hand, southern shao Lin such as hung gar or northern taiji practice with wck look and evolve into a different type of art, but claim as authentic, Are these still Wck? That is a question we all need to face. But most of us choose to defend our ego and the big name of the sifu or lineage instead of honestly looking into the issue in the expense of Wck.

So, do we know what the heck we are talking about? When it comes to snt?

[JPinAZ]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1235550]Screwing up siu Lin tau is screwing up Wck root ...

....So, do we know what the heck we are talking about? /QUOTE]

From seeing your videos where you wobble all over the place with no idea root or upright stance, and from reading this nonsense you posted on this thread: you're guilty of the first statement and fail horribly at the second.

[Hendrik]

Since you are not practicing Wck from the red boat, but a different type of art called Wck .
I can understand you point.





[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1235553]

Screwing up siu Lin tau is screwing up Wck root ...

....So, do we know what the heck we are talking about? /QUOTE]

From seeing your videos where you wobble all over the place with no idea root or upright stance, and from reading this nonsense you posted on this thread: you're guilty of the first statement and fail horribly at the second.

[PalmStriker]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1235554]Since you are not practicing Wck from the red boat, but a different type of art called Wck .
I can understand you point.





I suppose you claim to be Chinese and can read/write the language to study these Red Boat historic records? (大 大 大 大 ). You don't look Chinese in your video's.

[Hendrik]

I read Classical Chinese and ancient text.
Was train in ancient Chinese literature , so, researching Chinese history is not an issue.



Today, We do know very clear on red boat era history , include the official history and the hung mun or anti qing history on who is who at that time. Also tcma DNA .

So, we do know what very likely to happen in 1850 in details , support and match up by the data from multiple field. Wck history is clear .

So, which modern Wck lineage are making up history and non exist in the past we do know.




The following is the outcome of the study by evidence . It is extremely likely to be this way. There is no mystery in Wck history but a tragic past which most ancestors avoid.

The ancestors lost the uprising and only a few escape. They don't talk about history to avoid being track down and endanger their descendent or students. We can see these happen in the Chinese history 1850 to 1960, when family past is a big burdens . So they tell a different story to isolate their off spring from history facts.


http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/sc...ystemscwcykwaa

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/ta...orfoescwcykwaa

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/sc...ykwaa-22229730

I suppose you claim to be Chinese and can read/write the language to study these Red Boat historic records? (大 大 大 大 ). You don't look Chinese in your video's.

[JPinAZ]

Since you are not practicing Wck from the red boat, but a different type of art called Wck .
I can understand you point.

Exactly. But don't get it wrong, same art since they are all WCK, but clearly FAR different understandings!

And, my non-red boat system has 3 sets now and 3 sets in 1850 and 3 sets before that. So your 'theory' of this one, big super-set in 1850 is false - unless someone on a boat put them all together at that point just to break them all apart again?

BTW, since WC is WC, Centerline is still centerline, and gravity is gravity regardless if it came off a boat or land. So your excuse for having no root, bad posture and wobbling around in your videos makes no sense just because it came off a boat.
Oh wait, maybe the boat made you sea sick!! LOL

[Hendrik]

Facts:

1. From three main identify 1850 red boat wing chun kuen lineages, the Wong wah po, yik kam, and lo man Kung lineages, we know the facts is pre 1850, the Wck practice is one set. Three sets system comes after 1855, or post 1855.

2. The core of Wck in red boat is snake and crane within the siu Lin tau set, and the snake technology dna is from emei and the crane technology is from white crane of fujian. We today have writing and matching Dna of 1850 to 1890 to prove these, and also agreement from the Asia Chinese martial art expert ie. Gm Lee Kong , the southern Chinese martial art expert and scholar.

3. The yik kam and snake crane Wck lineages have traced their ancestors passed code with 1850 uprising anti Qing group and verified the identity of the ancestors. And the anti Qing operation the ancestors involve in, also match with the record within the Chinese official history.


4. There is no shaolin Lin in 1850 when the three set concept was created. When the siu Lin tau created in the 1700s, there also has no shaolin involve. These are history facts. Indeed the anti Qing admit they are using the name of burning of shaolin in 1855 as a pseudonym of burning of the fine jade hall .



Unless you can show the evidence as above, in term of Chinese history, trace able ancestors family tree, Chinese martial art DNA, traceable and match ancestors passed code with the anti Qing uprising , across fields or from different sources. your art is not Wck as of 1850 , a different art or might be a modern evolution of Wck.





Btw,

why is your siu lin tau dna show it is a subset of yip mam Wck mix with other components? Instead of having the common denominator DNA of 1850 wck slt from the three identifiable 1850 red boat era Wck?

May be you want to explain that to the wing chun kuen community.


These missing of common denominator DNA and mix with other components show by evidence it is a different art instead of the Wck as in Wong wah Bo, yik kam, lo man Kung, or ipman, yks, kulo , ...Wck.



If you like to, please feel free to Show us your siu Lin tau YouTube and we can objectively analyzed it here point by point, mechanics by mechanics.

Solid Evidence is the bottom line, as always


Finally, I would like to say I have full respect to the art and lineage you practice, but if it is not Wck 1850 then it is not. That is a DNA issue.

Exactly. But don't get it wrong, same art since they are all WCK, but clearly FAR different understandings!

And, my non-red boat system has 3 sets now and 3 sets in 1850 and 3 sets before that. So your 'theory' of this one, big super-set in 1850 is false - unless someone on a boat put them all together at that point just to break them all apart again?

BTW, since WC is WC, Centerline is still centerline, and gravity is gravity regardless if it came off a boat or land. So your excuse for having no root, bad posture and wobbling around in your videos makes no sense just because it came off a boat.
Oh wait, maybe the boat made you sea sick!! LOL

[Jim Roselando]

Interesting discussion.

Some thoughts below:

Hunt wrote:


Lo Kwai is quite clear that Leung Jan learned from 2 teachers. Wong Wa Boh taught a single form and Leung Yee Tai taught several San Sik. Leung Jan worked with His Sifu's to combine the teachings . They developed the 3 forms . Fok Bo Chuen was a younger student who was taught 3 forms from Wong Wa Bo after the forms were put together. The single form contained much the same material that Hendrick refers too. We retain a 4th form that is similar to the single form Wong Wah Bo taught Leung Jan originally. The other form's, pole, knives and dummy took shape under Leung Jan but were not wholly completed in a set form.


Thanks for sharing. I heard this info before about LJ & WWB splitting the sets but I thought I would give some feedback based on Gulao family lore.

First. The art of Wing Chun went from the Yim family to the Leung family by route of Yim marrying Leung Bok Lao in Fujian. From Leung Bok Lao the art is then brought back to Gulao and to the Leung family estate/HQ. BTW: Leung Bok Lao & Yim WC only taught Leung Lon Kwai (their godson) and nobody else.

Leung Long Kwai began teaching Wong Wah Bo in Gulao at the age of 13. There is a common mistake as most believe Wong Wah Bo was taught on the Red Boat. This is not the case. He was a Gulao native and relative of the Leung family. Leung Lon Kwai & Leung Bok Lao are also the same Leung family from Gulao. When Leung Lon Kwai taught Wong Wah Bo in Gulao, at this time they would have been training the single long set.

Leung Yee Tai was Leung Jan's second teacher. He was a Poler from the early generation of Red Boat people. Leung Yee Tai was taught Wing Chun by Wong Wah Bo. They exchanged info. Wing Chun boxing for Pole skills. According to the late Fung Chun it was Wong Wah Bo who introduced Luk Dim Boon Gwun to the Red Boat actors when he arrived on the Junks as he was the Dai Sihing of that group.

Who developed the 3 Fist Sets? First one may need to ask Why would they need to develop them and that would more likely be the burning of the Fine Jade in 1855. This would have been a paradigm shift in the art and a good reason to explain the purpose for the evolution. Gulao history says it was Wong Wah Bo but it very well could have been Leung Lon Kwai and Wong Wah Bo was just the first person to openly teach it. It should be known that all Wing Chun was given out by the Leung family representative during and before that time. Leung Jan was the last of the Leung family heirs. He was said to be skilled in both the old and new WCK. In Futshan he taught the "post" 1855 art. In Gulao he taught a refined fusion of all his knowledge (minus jing, qi, shen "qi stuff") Why? Time was not a luxury for him so it was left out (more likely)... JR


Just some thoughts!


Peace,

[tc101]

I am sorry but this is only More stories and conjecture based on stories. Why do people assume that the stories are true?

[Hendrik]

Why not?

Pieces matches up from different lineages and converge in many areas.

I am sorry but this is only More stories and conjecture based on stories. Why do people assume that the stories are true?

[tc101]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKs-5MzGUiw

All the pieces match up too.

[Hendrik]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKs-5MzGUiw

All the pieces match up too.

Now I really understand you well.

This is really clear up why you are not be able to read what I am posting,
but keep taking what you think as what I post.

[Vajramusti]

Interesting discussion.

Some thoughts below:

Hunt wrote:


Lo Kwai is quite clear that Leung Jan learned from 2 teachers. Wong Wa Boh taught a single form and Leung Yee Tai taught several San Sik. Leung Jan worked with His Sifu's to combine the teachings . They developed the 3 forms . Fok Bo Chuen was a younger student who was taught 3 forms from Wong Wa Bo after the forms were put together. The single form contained much the same material that Hendrick refers too. We retain a 4th form that is similar to the single form Wong Wah Bo taught Leung Jan originally. The other form's, pole, knives and dummy took shape under Leung Jan but were not wholly completed in a set form.


Thanks for sharing. I heard this info before about LJ & WWB splitting the sets but I thought I would give some feedback based on Gulao family lore.

First. The art of Wing Chun went from the Yim family to the Leung family by route of Yim marrying Leung Bok Lao in Fujian. From Leung Bok Lao the art is then brought back to Gulao and to the Leung family estate/HQ. BTW: Leung Bok Lao & Yim WC only taught Leung Lon Kwai (their godson) and nobody else.

Leung Long Kwai began teaching Wong Wah Bo in Gulao at the age of 13. There is a common mistake as most believe Wong Wah Bo was taught on the Red Boat. This is not the case. He was a Gulao native and relative of the Leung family. Leung Lon Kwai & Leung Bok Lao are also the same Leung family from Gulao. When Leung Lon Kwai taught Wong Wah Bo in Gulao, at this time they would have been training the single long set.

Leung Yee Tai was Leung Jan's second teacher. He was a Poler from the early generation of Red Boat people. Leung Yee Tai was taught Wing Chun by Wong Wah Bo. They exchanged info. Wing Chun boxing for Pole skills. According to the late Fung Chun it was Wong Wah Bo who introduced Luk Dim Boon Gwun to the Red Boat actors when he arrived on the Junks as he was the Dai Sihing of that group.

Who developed the 3 Fist Sets? First one may need to ask Why would they need to develop them and that would more likely be the burning of the Fine Jade in 1855. This would have been a paradigm shift in the art and a good reason to explain the purpose for the evolution. Gulao history says it was Wong Wah Bo but it very well could have been Leung Lon Kwai and Wong Wah Bo was just the first person to openly teach it. It should be known that all Wing Chun was given out by the Leung family representative during and before that time. Leung Jan was the last of the Leung family heirs. He was said to be skilled in both the old and new WCK. In Futshan he taught the "post" 1855 art. In Gulao he taught a refined fusion of all his knowledge (minus jing, qi, shen "qi stuff") Why? Time was not a luxury for him so it was left out (more likely)... JR


Just some thoughts!


Peace,

----------------------------------------------------------
Not bad thoughts Jim. Leung Jan had little time left in Gulao- imo accounting for the san sik approach.

[Hendrik]

Jim,

Excellent info!

I am glad you have asked late Gm Fung Chun lots of important question and video tape them!

Interesting discussion.

Some thoughts below:

Hunt wrote:


Lo Kwai is quite clear that Leung Jan learned from 2 teachers. Wong Wa Boh taught a single form and Leung Yee Tai taught several San Sik. Leung Jan worked with His Sifu's to combine the teachings . They developed the 3 forms . Fok Bo Chuen was a younger student who was taught 3 forms from Wong Wa Bo after the forms were put together. The single form contained much the same material that Hendrick refers too. We retain a 4th form that is similar to the single form Wong Wah Bo taught Leung Jan originally. The other form's, pole, knives and dummy took shape under Leung Jan but were not wholly completed in a set form.


Thanks for sharing. I heard this info before about LJ & WWB splitting the sets but I thought I would give some feedback based on Gulao family lore.

First. The art of Wing Chun went from the Yim family to the Leung family by route of Yim marrying Leung Bok Lao in Fujian. From Leung Bok Lao the art is then brought back to Gulao and to the Leung family estate/HQ. BTW: Leung Bok Lao & Yim WC only taught Leung Lon Kwai (their godson) and nobody else.

Leung Long Kwai began teaching Wong Wah Bo in Gulao at the age of 13. There is a common mistake as most believe Wong Wah Bo was taught on the Red Boat. This is not the case. He was a Gulao native and relative of the Leung family. Leung Lon Kwai & Leung Bok Lao are also the same Leung family from Gulao. When Leung Lon Kwai taught Wong Wah Bo in Gulao, at this time they would have been training the single long set.

Leung Yee Tai was Leung Jan's second teacher. He was a Poler from the early generation of Red Boat people. Leung Yee Tai was taught Wing Chun by Wong Wah Bo. They exchanged info. Wing Chun boxing for Pole skills. According to the late Fung Chun it was Wong Wah Bo who introduced Luk Dim Boon Gwun to the Red Boat actors when he arrived on the Junks as he was the Dai Sihing of that group.

Who developed the 3 Fist Sets? First one may need to ask Why would they need to develop them and that would more likely be the burning of the Fine Jade in 1855. This would have been a paradigm shift in the art and a good reason to explain the purpose for the evolution. Gulao history says it was Wong Wah Bo but it very well could have been Leung Lon Kwai and Wong Wah Bo was just the first person to openly teach it. It should be known that all Wing Chun was given out by the Leung family representative during and before that time. Leung Jan was the last of the Leung family heirs. He was said to be skilled in both the old and new WCK. In Futshan he taught the "post" 1855 art. In Gulao he taught a refined fusion of all his knowledge (minus jing, qi, shen "qi stuff") Why? Time was not a luxury for him so it was left out (more likely)... JR


Just some thoughts!


Peace,