Siu Lin tau

[tc101]

Why do we need to go back? ----------


As explain above, we need to find out and know what is wing chun kuen clearly to make the training effective.

As I pointed out there are wing chun people fighting and winning pro mma bouts. Are you saying their training isn't effective? Are you saying your training is more effective than that? Are you beating pro mma fighters?

Instead of taking what we think as what wing chun kuen is. But, still don't know what siu Lin tau is developing even though we keep mimic it.

For example,
white crane or karate uses its San chin set to develop their unique body type in order to support their applications.
Similarly Southern praying mantis , Hsing Yee , Baji .....etc
And wing chun kuen is using siu Lin tau set. But if we don't know how exactly siu nim tau works, we will not be able to effectively develop what needs to develop.

If a person can make their wing chun work at pro mma level haven't they developed what they need?

Can you tell me of anyone who is doing things as you believe they should be done who can perform at that level?

There are wing chun people fighting successfully in k1 and pro mma that is a very high level of performance. Does that not prove their training is working? It is kind of insulting to those people to suggest that although they train wing chun and can perform at a high level that they are doing wing chun wrong but that you know the right way.---------


Analogy to knowing one's own family tree history and family business is a different deal with any individual personal achievement. Both are aiding each others not counter each others.

I do not understand your analogy. Wing chun is to develop the individual. If an individual uses their wing chun training to develop to a very high performance level how can say they are wrong? How can you say something else works better if you cannot tell me of anyone who can do it?

Further more, mma or k1 is not a reference of the contents of the wing chun kuen art ,also great individual personal training doesn't necessary means one knows how the sets work, they have great achievement which we must respect but they are not necessary represent the art of Wck.

They represent the training from wing chun since that is what produced their results, right? So ow does that not represent the art of wing chun? Mma and K1 are a means of testing those results.

It is not up to me or them to have say on what is the Wck way, but upto the evidence of ancient to justify what is the Wck way.

Why do we need to look to ancients? Did not Yip Man know what is wing chun? How about Sum Nung? Did Leung Jan know? We're they all doing something other than wing chun? Did they all not make changes to the art?

I have listened to several of your videos now where you talk about your ideas. Are there any videos where you or anyone actually puts those ideas to use and makes them work in sparring or competition so that we can see your ideas working or is this just an idea you think should work? --------


Many wcners including many in this forum has put the process i share into their practice and experience the result for themselves . They can tell you what they gain from their training. Those who have adapted to YKT and snake engine knows what is it like.


also, such as the following YouTube , I suggest using the biofeedback machine as an independent reference to verify ones ability in a scientific way. That is a solid way to know the result of siu Lin tau practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzboUjmprU

One cannot see physiological experience in video. But if you follow the process and using the machine , you can get to that experience. As example on the above utube, one cannot imagine what the ancient writing means and how is it when one has a coherence state which can handle stress. But if one was train with the emwave machine , one will be able recognize and access that physiology state.

So, if one think their training can handle stress or pressure, just hook up the machine, see if one can enter to the coherence state at will? If one think he master the siu Lin tau training, then hook him to the machine and see if one can enter the coherence state when they practice the set.


Thus, my view is to leave it to the ancient evidence and the scientific data reference to justify what the art of Wck is, instead of k1, mma, famous grand masters, great fighters, or me to tell what is the art of Wck.

It is about let the art speak for itself by evidence and scientific data . Doesn't matter and independent to what I think.

I am sorry but this all makes little sense to me. Did Yip Man or Sum Nung or Leung Jan use biofeedback machines? Do you think the quality of your wing chun can be determined by an EEG?

I gather from your response that no you cannot offer any video of anyone able to use and I stress use the stuff you are talking about other than as some sort of meditation. I do not know about other people but I did not take up wing chun to learn to meditate or for biofeedback or whatever else this stuff is. For me the people who can make their wing chun work like the grand masters or the mma fighters were clearly doing something right or they would not have their achievements. If you think someone else ancient or otherwise had better ways of doing things then I think you should be able o produce at least similar results. If you can't do that then I think your conclusions are not valid.

[Hendrik]

As I pointed out there are wing chun people fighting and winning pro mma bouts. Are you saying their training isn't effective? Are you saying your training is more effective than that? Are you beating pro mma fighters?--------


You still missed my point.

It is like sport science and beating Muhammad Ali. They are Different issues.







If a person can make their wing chun work at pro mma level haven't they developed what they need? --------

Pro mma level is not an indication of if they do wing chun.

There are people who is talented in street fighting who doesn't have to train in martial art. But will beat you even if you have black belt.




Can you tell me of anyone who is doing things as you believe they should be done who can perform at that level? -------

Instead of going out of tangent.
Let say , to be very specific, what result do you get from your siu lin tau training?





I do not understand your analogy. Wing chun is to develop the individual. If an individual uses their wing chun training to develop to a very high performance level how can say they are wrong? ------


What is wing chun kuen?
Is it something define by anyone as they like ?

What is high performance level? What is the definition?

What is wrong or right?




They represent the training from wing chun since that is what produced their results, right? So ow does that not represent the art of wing chun? Mma and K1 are a means of testing those results. ------

Mma and k1 testing the individual ability but not whether they do wing chun or bjj or karate or boxing as the style define .





Why do we need to look to ancients? Did not Yip Man know what is wing chun? How about Sum Nung? Did Leung Jan know? We're they all doing something other than wing chun? Did they all not make changes to the art? -------


Everyone evolve their Wck , look at ancient is to find out what is the common denominator of the art, what has been lost , what has been improve, what need to be correct or improve.





I am sorry but this all makes little sense to me. Did Yip Man or Sum Nung or Leung Jan use biofeedback machines? Do you think the quality of your wing chun can be determined by an EEG? -------

They don't have the technology.

Thus, the transmission of the art in ancient is not as effective compare with the modern era where one can lead the student to experience the needed physiological state accurately.

By ancient standard, in today's language , once one stand in yjkym before starting slt , one enter into the coherence state of neuro, cardio, respiratory.....eft. That is a part of the internal Kung attainment of slt.

How long and how effective is this state can be convey in the ancient china?
How many of wcners today aware of this part of and can do it in their slt practice?
Or people even aware of the existing of this needed physiology state in slt practice?


Now, with modern technology, one can communicate, recognized the state clearly and develop it in a short time. With this coherence handling one has another degree of freedom to handle themselves . A part of snt training. The fundamental of " little idea". Coherence is physiological is the basic of the "little idea". "Little idea" is not a saying or thinking , it is a physiological state . Do one know this state, can one enter this state at will is critical in siu Lin tau set practice and development of Wck. Otherwise , it will not be called siu Lin tau.





I gather from your response that no you cannot offer any video of anyone able to use and I stress use the stuff you are talking about other than as some sort of meditation. ------

That is your opinion. I am ok with it .




I do not know about other people but I did not take up wing chun to learn to meditate or for biofeedback or whatever else this stuff is. For me the people who can make their wing chun work like the grand masters or the mma fighters were clearly doing something right or they would not have their achievements. ----

That is your intention and believe, it is perfectly ok.

I am discuss the art of Wck here as evidence from past shows. I do not disapprove the way you like to think. But present what is Wck according to the ancient evidence in today's language.





If you think someone else ancient or otherwise had better ways of doing things then I think you should be able o produce at least similar results. If you can't do that then I think your conclusions are not valid. ----------

Again, I am talking what is content the art of WCK according to the ancient evidence,
instead of who fight better.

As the above biofeedback machine case, evidentially, the modern technology can define and lead one to experience the coherence physiological state in slt practice and development much accurate and effective then any of the past grandmasters can. The so called internal art of slt now can be accurately know and develop.


Finally, my goal is not how good am I can demo. But how to use modern technology to support "mass production " or " common education " . So that every wcners can get it effectively.

Using the above biofeedback coherence state entering as an example. Upto now even among the so called grandmasters group, How many wcners has heard about it? How many knows what it is? How many can do it? How many can teach it? how effective can one attain it ?
But now on with a machine of $160 one can get it in a week of practice.


And thus, we do know the ancient know the existing of this coherence state when they design the slt set. But their teaching is not effective to get across. But today, via high tech one can get it very effectively.


So, why is it needs to have a coherence state training? In the ancient that is called the samadhi state . The state which is the prerequisite of the wing chun kuen famous slogan . " fist issue from the heart." In ancient chinese. Heart has two meanings, one means the physical center , another one is coherence state.

And how important is the coherence state? Remember the set is called siu Lin tau or " little idea" , asking ourself, why is the set name as " little idea" instead of tiger boxing , center line attack .....etc.

[JPinAZ]

Facts:

1. From three main identify 1850 red boat wing chun kuen lineages, the Wong wah po, yik kam, and lo man Kung lineages, we know the facts is pre 1850, the Wck practice is one set. Three sets system comes after 1855, or post 1855.

Not a fact, your made-up his-story

2. The core of Wck in red boat is snake and crane within the siu Lin tau set, and the snake technology dna is from emei and the crane technology is from white crane of fujian. We today have writing and matching Dna of 1850 to 1890 to prove these, and also agreement from the Asia Chinese martial art expert ie. Gm Lee Kong , the southern Chinese martial art expert and scholar.

Incorrect again, as there are several wc lineages that are not from red boat that date back to prior to 1850's that do not have this snake/crane nonsense, nor this one-set BS.
Your ignorance is astounding - WCK is not about animal style anything. While there are certain signatures/flavors of some snake & crane in WCK (as well as eagle, dragon, etc), the whole focus of WC's creation was to move AWAY from this animal style thinking and towards fighting as a human based on science and mzimum efficiency.

3. The yik kam and snake crane Wck lineages have traced their ancestors passed code with 1850 uprising anti Qing group and verified the identity of the ancestors. And the anti Qing operation the ancestors involve in, also match with the record within the Chinese official history.

If yik kam wanted to add animal styles back to his partial WCK, that is no problem to me. But this is one guy doing his own thing. it only proves what he did.

4. There is no shaolin Lin in 1850 when the three set concept was created. When the siu Lin tau created in the 1700s, there also has no shaolin involve. These are history facts. Indeed the anti Qing admit they are using the name of burning of shaolin in 1855 as a pseudonym of burning of the fine jade hall .

I could really care less about this shaolin buisness.

Unless you can show the evidence as above, in term of Chinese history, trace able ancestors family tree, Chinese martial art DNA, traceable and match ancestors passed code with the anti Qing uprising , across fields or from different sources. your art is not Wck as of 1850 , a different art or might be a modern evolution of Wck.

You know nothing about 'my art'. The proof is in the pudding, and I have offered to meet with you personally several times so we can share views, and funny enough,you've always declined So, you're not really interested in anything to do with my art. You are only here to spread your made-up his-story and BS

Btw,

why is your siu lin tau dna show it is a subset of yip mam Wck mix with other components? Instead of having the common denominator DNA of 1850 wck slt from the three identifiable 1850 red boat era Wck?

May be you want to explain that to the wing chun kuen community.

These missing of common denominator DNA and mix with other components show by evidence it is a different art instead of the Wck as in Wong wah Bo, yik kam, lo man Kung, or ipman, yks, kulo , ...Wck.

Hahaha, you are so clueless about so many things. My SNT does not come from red boats or wong wah bo. This is the time period where a lot of WC started changing and people went their own ways. You're a perfect example of this!

I will not argue about your missing common denominator in your WCK. That is your problem to keep trying to figure out.

If you like to, please feel free to Show us your siu Lin tau YouTube and we can objectively analyzed it here point by point, mechanics by mechanics.

Solid Evidence is the bottom line, as always

Finally, I would like to say I have full respect to the art and lineage you practice, but if it is not Wck 1850 then it is not. That is a DNA issue.

Enough with your stupid games, it's not about my SNT (which is easily found on youtube and has also been linked to here several times). You talk about DNA, but you cannot even stand straight in your own SNT videos. You wobble around and ramble on like crazy drunk sailor in your clips, so you are not qualified or able to analyze anything.

Now, if you would like to see or discuss my WC DNA further, I will be happy to show you personally like I have offered before. Please let me know when you are free.

[JPinAZ]

I am sorry but this all makes little sense to me.

You're far from alone on this one!

Did Yip Man or Sum Nung or Leung Jan use biofeedback machines? Do you think the quality of your wing chun can be determined by an EEG?

I gather from your response that no you cannot offer any video of anyone able to use and I stress use the stuff you are talking about other than as some sort of meditation. I do not know about other people but I did not take up wing chun to learn to meditate or for biofeedback or whatever else this stuff is. For me the people who can make their wing chun work like the grand masters or the mma fighters were clearly doing something right or they would not have their achievements. If you think someone else ancient or otherwise had better ways of doing things then I think you should be able o produce at least similar results. If you can't do that then I think your conclusions are not valid.

Of course he can't. He has openly admitted that his own WC is incomplete and missing stuff from the past and that is why he is looking to ancient texts, old histories, snake/crane arts etc to fill in the blanks.

Anyone that looks at a few of his videos can plainly see he can't even make what he talks about work for himself. And that is why you never see him do anything with a partner. Well, unless you count punching baloons and doing wall tricks with baseball bats The guy's clueless.

[Hendrik]

Believe what you like.

It is fine with me.

Not a fact, your made-up his-story



Incorrect again, as there are several wc lineages that are not from red boat that date back to prior to 1850's that do not have this snake/crane nonsense, nor this one-set BS.
Your ignorance is astounding - WCK is not about animal style anything. While there are certain signatures/flavors of some snake & crane in WCK (as well as eagle, dragon, etc), the whole focus of WC's creation was to move AWAY from this animal style thinking and towards fighting as a human based on science and mzimum efficiency.



If yik kam wanted to add animal styles back to his partial WCK, that is no problem to me. But this is one guy doing his own thing. it only proves what he did.



I could really care less about this shaolin buisness.



You know nothing about 'my art'. The proof is in the pudding, and I have offered to meet with you personally several times so we can share views, and funny enough,you've always declined So, you're not really interested in anything to do with my art. You are only here to spread your made-up his-story and BS



Hahaha, you are so clueless about so many things. My SNT does not come from red boats or wong wah bo. This is the time period where a lot of WC started changing and people went their own ways. You're a perfect example of this!

I will not argue about your missing common denominator in your WCK. That is your problem to keep trying to figure out.



Enough with your stupid games, it's not about my SNT (which is easily found on youtube and has also been linked to here several times). You talk about DNA, but you cannot even stand straight in your own SNT videos. You wobble around and ramble on like crazy drunk sailor in your clips, so you are not qualified or able to analyze anything.

Now, if you would like to see or discuss my WC DNA further, I will be happy to show you personally like I have offered before. Please let me know when you are free.

[Hendrik]

You are an interesting guy, can't show legitimate evidence and as usual turn into personal attack.

Hahaha. Go a head make my day. No one can wrap fire with paper.

You're far from alone on this one!



Of course he can't. He has openly admitted that his own WC is incomplete and missing stuff from the past and that is why he is looking to ancient texts, old histories, snake/crane arts etc to fill in the blanks.

Anyone that looks at a few of his videos can plainly see he can't even make what he talks about work for himself. And that is why you never see him do anything with a partner. Well, unless you count punching baloons and doing wall tricks with baseball bats The guy's clueless.

[tc101]

As I pointed out there are wing chun people fighting and winning pro mma bouts. Are you saying their training isn't effective? Are you saying your training is more effective than that? Are you beating pro mma fighters?--------


You still missed my point.

It is like sport science and beating Muhammad Ali. They are Different issues.

Ok but doesn't Ali show that his training was successful? And if someone says there is a better way to train than Ali would we not expect to see similar uccess?

If a person can make their wing chun work at pro mma level haven't they developed what they need? --------

Pro mma level is not an indication of if they do wing chun.

There are people who is talented in street fighting who doesn't have to train in martial art. But will beat you even if you have black belt.

Ok but the point is they are trained in wing chun and they are using their training in mma not something else. So we know their wing chun training got them to that point and that shows it worked, right?

Can you tell me of anyone who is doing things as you believe they should be done who can perform at that level? -------

Instead of going out of tangent.
Let say , to be very specific, what result do you get from your siu lin tau training?

That is not a tangent it is the main point because you said your way of training this ancient way produced more effective results so I ask where are these results?

Your question does not make sense to me because my training is not simply limited to SLT.

I do not understand your analogy. Wing chun is to develop the individual. If an individual uses their wing chun training to develop to a very high performance level how can say they are wrong? ------


What is wing chun kuen?
Is it something define by anyone as they like ?

Once more your question makes no sense to me. If I practice the art passed down from Leung Jan and Yip Man is this not wing chun?

What is high performance level? What is the definition?

What is wrong or right?

Wing chun is a martial art is it not? If someone is a may Thai fighter and can fight successfully on the pro level is this not a high performance level?

They represent the training from wing chun since that is what produced their results, right? So ow does that not represent the art of wing chun? Mma and K1 are a means of testing those results. ------

Mma and k1 testing the individual ability but not whether they do wing chun or bjj or karate or boxing as the style define .

Sure it does. What do you think they are using but their training? If they are poorly skilled in bjj then they will not be successful on the ground. They are not going to be able to beat skilled fighters without skills themselves.

You keep referring to definitions and this makes no sense to me.

Why do we need to look to ancients? Did not Yip Man know what is wing chun? How about Sum Nung? Did Leung Jan know? We're they all doing something other than wing chun? Did they all not make changes to the art? -------


Everyone evolve their Wck , look at ancient is to find out what is the common denominator of the art, what has been lost , what has been improve, what need to be correct or improve.

This also makes little sense to me. I do to need to know the history of bjj or boxing or any other martial art to practice those arts or to become highly skilled. Why do you think that looking to the ancient past is the path to getting better today especially when you don't know of anyone using your ancient ways who is getting better results?

I am sorry but this all makes little sense to me. Did Yip Man or Sum Nung or Leung Jan use biofeedback machines? Do you think the quality of your wing chun can be determined by an EEG? -------

They don't have the technology.

Thus, the transmission of the art in ancient is not as effective compare with the modern era where one can lead the student to experience the needed physiological state accurately.

By ancient standard, in today's language , once one stand in yjkym before starting slt , one enter into the coherence state of neuro, cardio, respiratory.....eft. That is a part of the internal Kung attainment of slt.

How long and how effective is this state can be convey in the ancient china?
How many of wcners today aware of this part of and can do it in their slt practice?
Or people even aware of the existing of this needed physiology state in slt practice?


Now, with modern technology, one can communicate, recognized the state clearly and develop it in a short time. With this coherence handling one has another degree of freedom to handle themselves . A part of snt training. The fundamental of " little idea". Coherence is physiological is the basic of the "little idea". "Little idea" is not a saying or thinking , it is a physiological state . Do one know this state, can one enter this state at will is critical in siu Lin tau set practice and development of Wck. Otherwise , it will not be called siu Lin tau.

I am sorry but who cares? As I said I did not take up wing chun to learn this technology or these states or this coherence as you call it. If this is what ancient wing chun was about I for one am happy that Leung Jan and Yip Man got rid of it. Even if you are right and this was the ancient way I prefer the new wing chun of LJ and YM.

I gather from your response that no you cannot offer any video of anyone able to use and I stress use the stuff you are talking about other than as some sort of meditation. ------

That is your opinion. I am ok with it .

Is there any video evidence of someone using your ancient stuff in fighting or sparring, yes or no?

I do not know about other people but I did not take up wing chun to learn to meditate or for biofeedback or whatever else this stuff is. For me the people who can make their wing chun work like the grand masters or the mma fighters were clearly doing something right or they would not have their achievements. ----

That is your intention and believe, it is perfectly ok.

I am discuss the art of Wck here as evidence from past shows. I do not disapprove the way you like to think. But present what is Wck according to the ancient evidence in today's language.

Yes but the grand masters are from the past too. Are you saying that what Leung Jan taught is not wing chun? Or what Yip Man taught is not wing chun?

If you think someone else ancient or otherwise had better ways of doing things then I think you should be able o produce at least similar results. If you can't do that then I think your conclusions are not valid. ----------

Again, I am talking what is content the art of WCK according to the ancient evidence,
instead of who fight better.

As the above biofeedback machine case, evidentially, the modern technology can define and lead one to experience the coherence physiological state in slt practice and development much accurate and effective then any of the past grandmasters can. The so called internal art of slt now can be accurately know and develop.

I am sorry to be a pain it is only what you are saying I find very confusing. You keep talking about this coherence state as though this is some holy grail. Perhaps the ancients were interested in this but I don't think Leung Jan or Yip Man were. Perhaps they saw this was a waste of time. If this coherence state makes your martial abilities better as you think how come the grand masters were not interested in it, how come people today can use their wing chun in pro mma without it and how come you can not show us anyone who can?

Finally, my goal is not how good am I can demo. But how to use modern technology to support "mass production " or " common education " . So that every wcners can get it effectively.

Using the above biofeedback coherence state entering as an example. Upto now even among the so called grandmasters group, How many wcners has heard about it? How many knows what it is? How many can do it? How many can teach it? how effective can one attain it ?
But now on with a machine of $160 one can get it in a week of practice.


And thus, we do know the ancient know the existing of this coherence state when they design the slt set. But their teaching is not effective to get across. But today, via high tech one can get it very effectively.


So, why is it needs to have a coherence state training? In the ancient that is called the samadhi state . The state which is the prerequisite of the wing chun kuen famous slogan . " fist issue from the heart." In ancient chinese. Heart has two meanings, one means the physical center , another one is coherence state.

And how important is the coherence state? Remember the set is called siu Lin tau or " little idea" , asking ourself, why is the set name as " little idea" instead of tiger boxing , center line attack .....etc.

I learned that the little idea refers to the basic strategic framework of wing chun or the idea of wing chun which is to defeat the opponent by dominating the centerline. The individual uses this framework to build his wing chun. The chum kiu and biu jee build on this framework.

[Hendrik]

Your question does not make sense to me because my training is not simply limited to SLT.---------


Slt is the core foundation of Wck, so instead of getting into millions of things, one needs to clear with what does one from SLT . So, as I brought up to you to be very specific, what result do you get from your siu lin tau training?

So, instead of get into general. Get specific, what result do you get from your siu Lin tau training?





Once more your question makes no sense to me. If I practice the art passed down from Leung Jan and Yip Man is this not wing chun? ---------


My question is what is wing chun? What is the definition






Wing chun is a martial art is it not? If someone is a may Thai fighter and can fight successfully on the pro level is this not a high performance level? ---------


Wing chun is a martial art and also a Chinese martial art . It has its uniqueness and concept.
As I have mention before, fight successfully on the pro mean only the individual ability. Does justify the style of his art.







This also makes little sense to me. I do to need to know the history of bjj or boxing or any other martial art to practice those arts or to become highly skilled. Why do you think that looking to the ancient past is the path to getting better today especially when you don't know of anyone using your ancient ways who is getting better results?--------


This thread is title siu lin tau. It is about the art history and content. As I have mentioned in the previous post. It is focus on finding out what it is by the evidence of ancient.

What you brought up is a different topic.






I am sorry but who cares? As I said I did not take up wing chun to learn this technology or these states or this coherence as you call it. If this is what ancient wing chun was about I for one am happy that Leung Jan and Yip Man got rid of it. Even if you are right and this was the ancient way I prefer the new wing chun of LJ and YM.--------


this topic is on siu Lin tau and its content. If you are not interested in the content of slt as define in the ancient then this is not the thread for you.






I am sorry to be a pain it is only what you are saying I find very confusing. You keep talking about this coherence state as though this is some holy grail. Perhaps the ancients were interested in this but I don't think Leung Jan or Yip Man were. Perhaps they saw this was a waste of time. If this coherence state makes your martial abilities better as you think how come the grand masters were not interested in it, how come people today can use their wing chun in pro mma without it and how come you can not show us anyone who can? ------


This is the reason I ask you what is the definition of Wck?

If it is according to you, then that is your view.

If it is according to ancient record then without the ability to enter the coherence state in slt practice means one doesn't practice properly.

So, the question to you is what is wing chun kuen?

As for your question on pro mma as I have repeat myself a few time, there are talented people who doesn't have to learn martial art but a born nature fighter.






I learned that the little idea refers to the basic strategic framework of wing chun or the idea of wing chun which is to defeat the opponent by dominating the centerline. The individual uses this framework to build his wing chun. The chum kiu and biu jee build on this framework.---------



Siu Lin tau , according to the ancient has six elements,

Body development including body structure,
mind development including coherence state, breathing
Breathing development including deep lower abs breathing.
Qi development including energy channeling in different part of the physical body.
Force change development including power generation, force trajectory , and force flow.
Momentum development including momentum manipulation ,strategy, and generation.

Those are what one develop in siu Lin tau.


So, again, that is the ancient Chinese definition. Does one develop all these six or partial or not knowing the existance of these six which is support each others as a system unique to Wck , that is the measurable questions.

[JPinAZ]

Slt is the core foundation of Wck, so instead of getting into millions of things, one needs to clear with what does one from SLT .

I actually agree with you. With this type of logic and understanding, your theory doesn't make any sense that there would be one long form set when SLT is so important on it's own...

[tc101]

Your question does not make sense to me because my training is not simply limited to SLT.---------


Slt is the core foundation of Wck, so instead of getting into millions of things, one needs to clear with what does one from SLT . So, as I brought up to you to be very specific, what result do you get from your siu lin tau training?

So, instead of get into general. Get specific, what result do you get from your siu Lin tau training?

Please do not try to deflect the inquiry I am making. You said this ancient wing chun stuff produces better results so I am asking about that.

Once more your question makes no sense to me. If I practice the art passed down from Leung Jan and Yip Man is this not wing chun? ---------


My question is what is wing chun? What is the definition

Another deflection. Why can't you answer my question? Is the art passed down from Leung Jan or Yip Man wing chun yes or no?

Wing chun is a martial art is it not? If someone is a may Thai fighter and can fight successfully on the pro level is this not a high performance level? ---------

Wing chun is a martial art and also a Chinese martial art . It has its uniqueness and concept.
As I have mention before, fight successfully on the pro mean only the individual ability. Does justify the style of his art.

To fight successfully against skilled people requires skill. Skill is ability. That ability comes from training. A bjj fighter or boxer does to just win because of natural ability but training. The individual's performance justifies his training by showing how well it worked. If you cannot justify your martial art by fighting how would you? By EEG?

This also makes little sense to me. I do to need to know the history of bjj or boxing or any other martial art to practice those arts or to become highly skilled. Why do you think that looking to the ancient past is the path to getting better today especially when you don't know of anyone using your ancient ways who is getting better results?--------


This thread is title siu lin tau. It is about the art history and content. As I have mentioned in the previous post. It is focus on finding out what it is by the evidence of ancient.

What you brought up is a different topic.

This is another deflection. You brought up how knowing the history and ancient context would make training today better.

I am sorry but who cares? As I said I did not take up wing chun to learn this technology or these states or this coherence as you call it. If this is what ancient wing chun was about I for one am happy that Leung Jan and Yip Man got rid of it. Even if you are right and this was the ancient way I prefer the new wing chun of LJ and YM.--------


this topic is on siu Lin tau and its content. If you are not interested in the content of slt as define in the ancient then this is not the thread for you.

If you make claims of superior results do not then try to back off with this is only a thread about history.

If your opinion is SLT was in ancient times concerned with achieving samadhi or enlightenment that is one thing. That is not something I am interested in. But you went further and talked about getting better results. I now see you did not mean better results in using your martial art but in changing your brain waves or whatever.

You should put up a disclaimer.

I am sorry to be a pain it is only what you are saying I find very confusing. You keep talking about this coherence state as though this is some holy grail. Perhaps the ancients were interested in this but I don't think Leung Jan or Yip Man were. Perhaps they saw this was a waste of time. If this coherence state makes your martial abilities better as you think how come the grand masters were not interested in it, how come people today can use their wing chun in pro mma without it and how come you can not show us anyone who can? ------


This is the reason I ask you what is the definition of Wck?

If it is according to you, then that is your view.

If it is according to ancient record then without the ability to enter the coherence state in slt practice means one doesn't practice properly.

So, the question to you is what is wing chun kuen?

So in your view the purpose of wing chun is to get into samadhi state? Quite frankly I practice wing chun as a martial art and that stuff I have no interest in.

As for your question on pro mma as I have repeat myself a few time, there are talented people who doesn't have to learn martial art but a born nature fighter.

I am not talking about natural born fighters but people who train to develop skill that they use in fighting.

I learned that the little idea refers to the basic strategic framework of wing chun or the idea of wing chun which is to defeat the opponent by dominating the centerline. The individual uses this framework to build his wing chun. The chum kiu and biu jee build on this framework.---------

Siu Lin tau , according to the ancient has six elements,

Body development including body structure,
mind development including coherence state, breathing
Breathing development including deep lower abs breathing.
Qi development including energy channeling in different part of the physical body.
Force change development including power generation, force trajectory , and force flow.
Momentum development including momentum manipulation ,strategy, and generation.

Those are what one develop in siu Lin tau.


So, again, that is the ancient Chinese definition. Does one develop all these six or partial or not knowing the existance of these six which is support each others as a system unique to Wck , that is the measurable questions.

Maybe that is someone's ancient definition but that does not mean it is the definition for all wing chun. It also does not mean we are stuck with it because like Leung Jan or Yip Man we are not the slaves to anyone's definition or idea.

[YouKnowWho]

A: This is my opinion.
B: This is my opinion.
A: ...

If A

- responds to B's post, that will be "argument".
- don't, either people may think that A agrees with B, or A just totally dis-respect B's opinion and ignore B's post.

It's a lose-lose situation no matter which way A may take. Sometime just trying to keep the discussion going can lead into ugly argument or even personal attack.

[anerlich]

Sometime just trying to keep the discussion going can lead into ugly argument or even personal attack.

This isn't a discussion. It is Hendrik lecturing and pontificating, and everyone else telling him (rightly IMO) that he is talking out of his a$$.

[Hendrik]

]Please do not try to deflect the inquiry I am making. You said this ancient wing chun stuff produces better results so I am asking about that.----------


There is no deflect your inquiry here. But a communication issue which needs to resolve.

As previous, I ask you specific questions and
pointing to specific details , instead of getting to open end term such as fighting, mma, pro , which can means many things by different people .


Instead,

I told you specifically, it is about the art of Wck, focus on siu lin tau in particular, the six elements of siu lin tau development, and very specifically zoom into the coherence state which is one of the six elememente.







Another deflection. Why can't you answer my question? Is the art passed down from Leung Jan or Yip Man wing chun yes or no? -------


If not, TST will not use the term Nim Lik. Nim Lik needs a coherence state to handle. If you are in yip man lineage don't you know that already?

As for how good or how many in Yip man lineage get it or how effective the teaching compare with using the modern measurable biofeedback machine, I leave it for those who check it out to reply .





To fight successfully against skilled people requires skill. Skill is ability. That ability comes from training. A bjj fighter or boxer does to just win because of natural ability but training. The individual's performance justifies his training by showing how well it worked. If you cannot justify your martial art by fighting how would you? By EEG? -------

Siu Lin tau development by ancient 1850 definition cover the six core elements as I have present in details and holistically.

How many core elements has one train in? How many core elements has one master directly influence the person basic skill, even in today's scientific standard.

Fighting means one needs to know how to handle physiological state for optimal result . Mind is a part of the equation. EEG is a direct measure of the mind. Emwave I present above is more then EEG because it deal with breathing, heart rhythm , and mind.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=r...&v=q9Nsm1U0CpY






This is another deflection. You brought up how knowing the history and ancient context would make training today better. -------


Without knowing the ancient one doesn't know the six core elements, and thus, one doesn't have a full development for ones siu lin tau.

It is clearly presented above, but you have a different mindset. Thus, not comprehend.





If you make claims of superior results do not then try to back off with this is only a thread about history.--------


As above, there is no back off. But if you doesn't comprehend. I would not force you to think different. You have your freedom of thinking And see things as you like to see even if it is not what in front of you






If your opinion is SLT was in ancient times concerned with achieving samadhi or enlightenment that is one thing. That is not something I am interested in. But you went further and talked about getting better results. I now see you did not mean better results in using your martial art but in changing your brain waves or whatever.
You should put up a disclaimer. ------


You are free to have your mind set and the way you like to think. Above is pretty clear how things fit together in a systematic way. From big picture of the six core elements and its details.






So in your view the purpose of wing chun is to get into samadhi state? Quite frankly I practice wing chun as a martial art and that stuff I have no interest in.-------




You always free to have your mind set.

Samadhi is just an ancient term, for today.

In reality

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=sSXMG...%3DsSXMGDpxYxE


Slt is high tech even in today's standard.

But if you don't appreciate it. You are free to believe what you like.


For those who follow me, this is the pre requisite for " fist issue from heart " one needs to be able to use the heart. Meaning to shift state. That is one reason slt is practice slowly, there are multi dimentional biofeedback training within slt practice. With today's high tech we can go pin point them. Not to mention, the handling of the force change trajectory which the Chinese called Jin or kent in Cantonese.





Maybe that is someone's ancient definition but that does not mean it is the definition for all wing chun. It also does not mean we are stuck with it because like Leung Jan or Yip Man we are not the slaves to anyone's definition or idea.-------


Feel free to have your mind set.

However, without having the six core elements cover, one doesn't develop Wck slt fully. That is a fact no one can avoid.

[YouKnowWho]

This isn't a discussion. It is Hendrik lecturing and pontificating, and everyone else telling him (rightly IMO) that he is talking out of his a$$.

Agree! Since Hendrik started this thread, he should respect other's opinions and just put himself into "listen" mode. That's what I would do.

Why do we need to go back?

Good question. I have mentioned this before. If

- Bill Gates wanted to go back to his DOS root (he bought from some), we won't have WINDOW today.
- Steve Jobs wanted to go back to his Apple Lisa root (it came from Zerox STAR), we won't have IPOT today.

[Hendrik]

So I brought the

Siu Lin tau , according to the ancient has six elements,

Body development including body structure,
mind development including coherence state,
Breathing development including deep lower abs breathing.
Qi development including energy channeling in different part of the physical body.
Force change development including power generation, force trajectory , and force flow.
Momentum development including momentum manipulation ,strategy, and generation.

Those are what one develop in siu Lin tau.

And the scientific measurement issue such as the biofeedback or even force flow trajectory.


My view is skill needs to be able to measure and cover different area holistically. Instead of making the statement "let fight and show me how good are you."

The ancient siu Lin tau do design with holistic coverage with the six core elements, with today's high tech, one can have aids to develop the skill more effectively. What once very difficult to communicate such as coherence now is simple to communicate.


Samadhi state in slt?
Let see what the pro do today

http://www.mjms.ukim.edu.mk/Online/M....2010-0098.pdf