Dan Chi Sau - Ideas

[BPWT]

On the Gary Lam Interview thread, Kevin made an interesting point about Dan Chi Sau:

The error of arm sensing bs starts at Dan chi sao with the simple words , now feel the opponents arm and block it, elbow ideas have been lost for " feel me , follow you, feeling me ..." : /

As most people learn Dan Chi Sau before moving onto Poon Sau/Chi Sau, it really is a good place to start thinking about how the aims/ideas of the system are taught.

When I studied with a Wing Chun group in the past, Dan Chi Sau was taught in the following way:

You started with one person connecting with a partner (both in YJKYM) using Tan and Fook. I was told that my elbow should not be too close to the centerline when in Tan, because it was easier for the guy in Fook to punch through. The Tan and Fook were joined, so to speak, but I was taught the arms should be light in the contact - no pushing forward or down, left or right, just bridged and relaxed.

I was also taught that for the opening movement, when the person in Tan attacks with a palm strike, the person in Fook sinks the elbow and arm down a little and converts to Jum Sau to stop/block the attack. You stuck to the opponent's limbs so you could feel where his attacking comes from.


Where I study now the emphasis is different.

We start the same way (YJKYM + Tan and Fook), but the elbows should be in and there should be forward force from the elbow. We are taught to try and keep the forearm and wrist relaxed, but to try and drive the limb forward from the elbow (at this stage of the training).

Essentially the Tan wants to go forward and convert into a punch, as does the other guy's Fook, but as both are doing the same thing (forward force from the elbow), on the same line, stick is created and neither can 'get through'.

When the person in Tan starts the cycle with the palm strike, the structure changes slightly with the strike, as does the direction of force. The person in Fook Sau doesn't convert it to Jum to block the palm strike, the Fook coverts to Jum because with the changing Tan (to palm strike), the Fook automatically moves forward to strike with the elbow down (as we would punch).

From there, the basic cycle moves through the next stages, punch and Bong, back to Tan and Fook, but the emphasis remains the same - the stick is created because you are trying to strike to center, and so too is the other guy. When there's no stick, your strike moves in.

(the bong sau is a little different in the sense that it is not trying to punch per se, but the forward force is there - the hand trying to spring into the center - using the same rattan-cane or springy force that Leung Ting writes about)

As a cooperative drill, you stay within the confines of cycle (unless you are working other ideas, and then things might free up/have variations).

The added benefit of the stick is that it can (once you move into Chi Sau proper with both arms), and if you are maintaining good position and structure, help you understand what your opponent's potential options are (by reflex, rather than trying to take the time to think about it ).

So the approach I learned in the past is very different to the one I learn now. Perhaps the one I learn is also very different to Kevin's.

But basically, what I wanted to ask is:

How do you train Dan Chi Sau, what are the ideas within it (as these ideas probably carry over into the rest of your Chi Sau training)?

[BPWT]

Thanks! So we do things a bit different (no surprise ) but maybe a little the same too - as I agree with some points.

You don't have to be in contact or feel each others arms in dan chi sao.

Okay, in DCS (for us) we do need to be in contact. During the drill, we don't lose contact.

To start with you're both too far to hit each other anyway, intentional. Second you're BOTH ( mutually ) training VT punching methods tan is one aspect , Jum another, you work WITH each other.

Yes, the distance is not a true hitting distance - you would need to step in to make a good solid hit (we later incorporate stepping too - though this opens up different possible responses based on how the force comes in). And yes, we also see DCS as a cooperative drill (in a sense, all 'set motions' with a partner are cooperative). And yes, we see DCS as, at least in part, a way of training punching (punching position and the line of attack) for both people.

If your approach is put your arm here or he will hit you.... You have been told your partner is the opponent. So now you are going to stick to him and not let him in. And henceforth you will fight anyone in chi sao by contact and control pressure at the CONTACT POINT aka a .... Human condition

This make sense - though to me it might not all be a bad thing. For example, by training the punch, and the partner being the target (even if out of range) they are kinda the opponent. We are both looking to occupy the center (as the best way to launch the punch) so in that sense I position my arm in way that teaches me the best line of attack, and defense too, via my attack.

So yes again, in a way we are placing an emphasis on the contact point - though only because that contact point is on the best line of attack (the best in a WC/VT/WT sense). But the idea is to have that forward pressure - if the contact point is lost by the partner, or if their contact point deviates, then I should be getting in to strike via that initial contact point. Of course, if there is absolutely no contact point at all - I am just going in.

...while striking you will also defend. And not by trying to stick to another arm. You are introduced to the elbows previously trained in SLT.
CONDITIONING elbows.

Yes, if I understand you right, I think we mean the same thing. Maybe.

So some differences but maybe some similarities too in the methods.

Anyone else train DCS differently? With a different idea/set of ideas?

[Grumblegeezer]

So the approach I learned in the past is very different to the one I learn now. Perhaps the one I learn is also very different to Kevin's.

But basically, what I wanted to ask is:

How do you train Dan Chi Sau, what are the ideas within it (as these ideas probably carry over into the rest of your Chi Sau training)?

BPWT --Kevin makes some valid points but I suspect that he comes to the conversation with the assumption that the way other groups practice is both different and wrong, even when we may in fact agree.

For example we also train dan-chi as a cooperative drill, at a distance that is a bit too far for actual hitting. Like him our objective is not to stick or chase hands but on the other hand, I don't see how you can continue doing dan chi if your partner abandons centerline and doesn't stick --your hand will spring forward (lat sau jik chung). As always, words fail us when describing WC/VT/WT. If I had the opportunity to practice the PB-WSL method of training dan chi, I'm sure I'd have a better understanding.

As for the LT lineage approach, the real key is for each training partner to maintain proper position and structure with each extending equal "forward spring. Then when one partner converts tan to front palm, the forward energy compresses his partner's fook-sau into a jum-sau. Similarly, when the jum-sau is converted into a low-elbow centerline punch, the punch rolls his partner's arm over into bong sau ...if each has good arm position and is sufficiently loose and springy.

-- In other words in LT WT (and it's offshoots) dan chi teaches you how to to let your partner's movement make your defense. The "jum" and "bong" are not "techniques" that you make yourself. They are each just a bowed rattan or bent spring formed by the energy received from your partner.

Now all this is somewhat different from the first version of dan chi I learned from an instructor in the Ho Kam Ming - Augustine Fong lineage. But I was a beginner at that time and I'm sure I missed much. More recently, I had an opportunity to observe Joy's class and once played a bit of dan chi with a student of his a park. They have a slightly different take on the drill. And dan-chi is just a drill, not a competition. For it to work, both partner's must be willing to do it the same way.

[YouKnowWho]

In Dan Chi Shou, do you try to use your hand to grab on your opponent's wrist? When you use Fu Shou and your opponent used Tan Shou, your Fu Shou can be a perfect wrist grab if you open your "tiger mouth".

[Vajramusti]

Oh Boy- I think that the dahn chi sao I do is quite different from KG's and WT's in the details.
Of course the elbow controlling the line is always important> But there is much more. A comprehensive essay would take too long to write and very likely not read carefully by the usual dogmatic suspects. The smoothness of the various transitions are important. Control of position, angle,distance contact points. Then one can smoothly walk around with it, break off and reconnect (lat), use not just the regular punch but also inside/outside punches, do some one handed gor sao
and more. Training each hand separately as well as two handed chi sao variations are important.

[Grumblegeezer]

...the dahn chi sao I do is quite different from KG's and WT's in the details. ...A comprehensive essay would take too long to write and very likely not read carefully by the usual dogmatic suspects.

Ain't that the truth Joy. Even if you could express it all in words, most people wouldn't bother to read it with the necessary care. It's so much easier to share these things by actually crossing bridges with people with a genuine interest.

[YouKnowWho]

No tiger mouth, but great name.

"虎口(Hu Kou) - tiger mouth" is to open your thumb and your 1st finger. You can't perform any grabbing if you don't open your tiger mouth.

http://imageshack.us/a/img819/2473/0e5c.jpg

[Vajramusti]

"虎口(Hu Kou) - tiger mouth" is to open your thumb and your 1st finger. You can't perform any grabbing if you don't open your tiger mouth.

http://imageshack.us/a/img819/2473/0e5c.jpg

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True- but there is no "grabbing" in my dahn chi sao.

[Eric_H]

In Dan Chi Shou, do you try to use your hand to grab on your opponent's wrist? When you use Fu Shou and your opponent used Tan Shou, your Fu Shou can be a perfect wrist grab if you open your "tiger mouth".

Yep, if you can't deny a grab you didn't get good leverage.

[LFJ]

You can't perform any grabbing if you don't open your tiger mouth.

You've never heard of a thumbless grip?

[YouKnowWho]

You've never heard of a thumbless grip?

That's a "temporary" grip. Most of the time you use it to pull and strike back right way. If your opponent can get away from your pull and strike, you will lose that contact. It's fast but not enough "fish hook" effect. You will not try to catch fish by using that principle.

[LFJ]

Right, but the thumbless grip is what is used for that momentary purpose in laap-sau. We aren't looking to grab and catch fish in VT, because it can go both ways. Even when you grab someone, it can put you both "on the hook" so to speak.

[YouKnowWho]

Right, but the thumbless grip is what is used for that momentary purpose in laap-sau. We aren't looking to grab and catch fish in VT, because it can go both ways. Even when you grab someone, it can put you both "on the hook" so to speak.

Agree! both bridge and fish hook are 2 ways street. You can sense your opponent. At the same time your opponent can sense you too. If your opponent can move back faster than your forward footwork, your chain punches won't be able to reach him. If you use your "fish hook" to pull your opponent into you, your chain punches will have better chance to land on his face. The "fish hook" is the only method (as far as I know) that you can prevent your opponent from moving away from you.

- The "fish hook" is used when your opponent wants to move away from you but you want to move in toward him.

- If both you and your opponent want to move in toward each other, since the person who applies the "fish hook" can release it anytime he wants to, he still has advantage.

- If both you and your opponent want to move away from each other, the "fish hook" will not be applied by either party anyway.

[Vajramusti]

Agree! both bridge and fish hook are 2 ways street. You can sense your opponent. At the same time your opponent can sense you too. The "fish hook" is the only way to prevent your opponent from moving back away from you. If your opponent can move back faster than your forward footwork, your chain punches won't be able to reach him. If you use your "fish hook" to pull your opponent into you, your chain punches will have better chance to land on his face.

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I don't chain punch.
Also-dahn chi sao is for development of key attributes. It is not fighting.

[YouKnowWho]

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I don't chain punch.
Also-dahn chi sao is for development of key attributes. It is not fighting.

The "grab" is a key attribute too and can also be developed in Dan Chi Shou (if you want to). When Fu Shou meets Tan Shou, the chance to train "grab" is already there. All you need is just to open your "tiger mouth".