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Thread: Legal Self Defense Questions

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    Self-defense?

    Really?

    Is it common to follow, harass, and approach random people for no reason, all the while carrying a gun, down there in Florida?
    Pazman you cant be reasoned with you have shown that with your first post in this thread.

    Syn7 on the other hand is mostly rational and Im going to explain why I hold the view that I do in PM with Syn7

  2. #17
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    I think he's talking about Zimmerman's medical report. Just a guess.

    The Zimmerman case isn't a good example of self defense. Even if he was chased down and beaten to hell, he shot a dude that was unarmed and that's not an easy case to explain as far as the law is concerned; esp when they die. I'm not trying to say who's right in this case; I'm just laying out the facts as far as the law is gonna see them.

    There's this dude - I forget his name - he teaches gun self defense. He talks a lot about legal ramifications. You disarm a guy and then point the gun at him, what then? If you shoot him while he's unarmed, your @ss can get sued or worse.

    Unless you're in danger of death, it's probably not safe to assume the law is gonna be on your side.

    (*Just a note, because I'm sure someone on here is gonna get all kinds of bent out of shape and have a giant knee-jerk with what I said: I'm not a lawyer. Never have been, never will be. I am also not a cop, judge, and I don't even work for the state . This is just my understanding of things and it makes sense to me. If anyone gets offended by these 4 short paragraphs or wants to flame me for it: please get a life. In the event that this is not possible, pull your lip over your head and swallow. Kthnxbai.)
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    like that old japanese zen monk that grabs white woman student titties to awaken them to zen, i grab titties of kung fu people to awaken them to truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    You can discuss discrepancies and so on in people's posts without ripping them apart. So easy to do sitting behind a computer screen anonymously, but in person I'm sure you'd be very different, unless you're a total misanthrope without any friends.

  3. #18
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    Pazman is correct. You would be far better seeking legal advice from actual legal experts, and there are plenty of "free" legal hot lines you can find on the web that for 1 or 2 days a month, a lawyer will give you about a 15 minute consult should you need help.

    However, since you (kungfubar) are from Florida, you benefit from having one of the legal codes on this matter that is written fairly plain as day black and white. You can read the law and infer for yourself with probable accuracy.

    As far as Zimmerman goes, if someone starts tailing me home, gets out of their car and confronts me in what I perceive as a hostile manner, I'm going to splatter their face on the sidewalk in self defense too.

    What I find most distressing, is that no one seems to be asking whether Martin was protected by SYG as well? Why is it ok to talk about Zim being afraid and thus justified, but not the kid (because as far as I'm concerned an 18 y/o is still a kid) being followed?

    Zim grabbed a gun and got out of his vehicle. That's not a debatable incident, that's established fact. Whether or not Martin hid, whether Zim attacked first, or whether Martin ninja styled him from a bush makes no difference. Zim began the tailing, Zim got out the vehicle after grabbing a gun, Zim chased Martin on foot. SYG does not require Martin to retreat at all. That is the exact reason the "castle" law and now SYG were created.

    There's a lot that has to come out in testimony. But the arguments so far are crap. According to FL law itself, in no way did Martin have to retreat.

    (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
    Public street is public.

    So until someone proves Martin was doing something illegal, or they find a way to argue that the initial interaction (initiated by Zimm) ended, then I find it pretty ridiculous that the same law that was at one time going to be invoked to protect the defendant, does not also protect Martin.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCo KungFu View Post
    Pazman is correct. You would be far better seeking legal advice from actual legal experts, and there are plenty of "free" legal hot lines you can find on the web that for 1 or 2 days a month, a lawyer will give you about a 15 minute consult should you need help.

    However, since you (kungfubar) are from Florida, you benefit from having one of the legal codes on this matter that is written fairly plain as day black and white. You can read the law and infer for yourself with probable accuracy.

    As far as Zimmerman goes, if someone starts tailing me home, gets out of their car and confronts me in what I perceive as a hostile manner, I'm going to splatter their face on the sidewalk in self defense too.

    What I find most distressing, is that no one seems to be asking whether Martin was protected by SYG as well? Why is it ok to talk about Zim being afraid and thus justified, but not the kid (because as far as I'm concerned an 18 y/o is still a kid) being followed?

    Zim grabbed a gun and got out of his vehicle. That's not a debatable incident, that's established fact. Whether or not Martin hid, whether Zim attacked first, or whether Martin ninja styled him from a bush makes no difference. Zim began the tailing, Zim got out the vehicle after grabbing a gun, Zim chased Martin on foot. SYG does not require Martin to retreat at all. That is the exact reason the "castle" law and now SYG were created.

    There's a lot that has to come out in testimony. But the arguments so far are crap. According to FL law itself, in no way did Martin have to retreat.



    Public street is public.

    So until someone proves Martin was doing something illegal, or they find a way to argue that the initial interaction (initiated by Zimm) ended, then I find it pretty ridiculous that the same law that was at one time going to be invoked to protect the defendant, does not also protect Martin.

    Im not looking for legal advise, I just want to talk about various scenarios and what different guys would do.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KungFubar View Post
    Im not looking for legal advise, I just want to talk about various scenarios and what different guys would do.
    Ok, then in that case. I'd rather take the chance and be in legal trouble than be dead.

  6. #21
    I would have ambushed Zimmerman and beat the hell out of him in that scenario. I would have stood my ground and skull fucked him with no remorse. Period. Anyone who engages me in any sort of creepy or aggressive manner forfeits their right to personal security. I don't start fights... EVER. I do, however, finish them.


    I don't do PM's. Sorry. I'm not an off the record kind of guy. I haven't read the 6 notifications and I doubt I will. However, I will give you the opportunity to paste them in this thread on your own and I will respond to them here... for all to see.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    I would have ambushed Zimmerman and beat the hell out of him in that scenario. I would have stood my ground and skull fucked him with no remorse. Period. Anyone who engages me in any sort of creepy or aggressive manner forfeits their right to personal security. I don't start fights... EVER. I do, however, finish them.


    I don't do PM's. Sorry. I'm not an off the record kind of guy. I haven't read the 6 notifications and I doubt I will. However, I will give you the opportunity to paste them in this thread on your own and I will respond to them here... for all to see.
    ya youd be dead like trayvon all because you decided to over react and ambush someone instead of seeing what they were so concerned about. Regarding the rest, it looks like I overestimated you. ... again.. go ahead a disregard my messages they are no longer relevant.
    Last edited by KungFubar; 06-29-2013 at 03:19 PM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by KungFubar View Post
    ya youd be dead like trayvon all because you decided to over react and ambush someone instead of seeing what they were so concerned about. Regarding the rest, it looks like I overestimated you. ... again.. go ahead a disregard my messages they are no longer relevant.
    You can be concerned all you want. Live in paranoia that the evil purple goblins are stealing your cheerios and probing you with tootsie rolls all you want. But walking down the street isn't illegal. And irrational paranoia doesn't give one the right to play vigilante.

    You trail someone in a car, they get suspicious. You get out of that car and then chase them on foot, they have every right to perceive YOU as the threat because you have now initiated a hostile act.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFubar View Post
    ya youd be dead like trayvon all because you decided to over react and ambush someone instead of seeing what they were so concerned about. Regarding the rest, it looks like I overestimated you. ... again.. go ahead a disregard my messages they are no longer relevant.

    Sure... and all because some douchebag wanted to play LARPcop. Either he will spend the rest of his life in segregated PC or he'll be let go and have to change his name and hide the rest of his life. Either way, by disregarding the advice of the people he was pretending to be, he killed a child and ruined his own life. And the fact that he and his wife conspired to hide funds from the court ain't a good look.


    Where I live, that stuff simply doesn't happen. Take one look at our criminal code and you will know why. It's far from perfect, but it's light years ahead of the FLA version.

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by soco kungfu View Post
    you trail someone in a car, they get suspicious. You get out of that car and then chase them on foot, they have every right to perceive you as the threat because you have now initiated a hostile act.

    period....!!!

  11. #26
    Kungfubar:

    Trayvon martin is a victim, but he is not a victim of GZ, he is a victim of his own upbringing that tells him its ok to imitate gangster lifestyle. Its true he wasnt doing anything wrong that night, but he matched the profile of those who were doing theft, vandalism and break ins in the weeks prior at that apartment complex. They perpetrators were young males, white and black, wearing the hoody so you cant see their face, wearing their pants down past their ass, wandering aimlessly around at night and in inclemet weather. Notice, the perps were black AND WHITE. So yes he matched the profile, but it was not a racial profile it was a criminal profile.

    GZ is the block watch captain in charge of the security of the complex. He is supposed to report suspicious activity and this activity matched. Again, not because he was black, but because his behavior and style matched the previous perps. I understand TM did nothing wrong that night.

    GZ is not harrassing or stalking or any of those other buzz / spin words. He was trying to keep visual contact with the suspicious person so when the police came he could tell them where he was.

    He lost visual contact with TM and started heading back to his car when TM attacked him. If you read TM texts available online you can see the mentality the kid has. It is a mentality of fighting for sport, guns, and drugs. Im not making that up you can see the subpoened texts online. They make him out to be a little kid with skittles and iced tea but that is not accurate. You simply must read the texts to understand.

    TM was not a bad kid, but he was on a bad road and that night he did try GZ. If TM wanted to get away he could have easily outrun the clinically obese GZ but he did not. According to court testimony two days ago, TM called GZ a creepy as cracker and a ******. THis is according to the girl he was talking to on the phone at the time he was walking around in the back yards.

    TM double backed around and punched GZ in the face, took him down to the ground and pound position and broke GZ nose and started bashing his head on the concrete side walk. Did you listen to the 911 recording of GZ screaming for his life? You should. Also freely available on youtube.

    While on the ground GZ jacket rose up revealing his 9mm, when TM saw it he told GZ he was going to die that night and reached toward GZ gun. GZ got it first and shot TM in the chest and that was the end of the fight.


    That is self defense according to the law. He has a right to carry a gun, he has a right to go anywhere he wants on his own property. He wasnt stalking TM to kill him or hurt him, only to ask what he was doing there because he matched the description and circumstances of the previous criminals that were there in the past few days. Many of them got away because by the time the police got there they were gone and he lost visual contact with them. Thats why he wanted to make sure not to lose visual contact this time and tried to maintain VC.

    It certainly was TM that attacked GZ, it was racially motivated by TM, GZ would have died if he didnt use his weapon.

    If you watch the court proceedings you will see this is what happened. Youtube is filled with all the interviews of GZ and all the witness testimony. I have watched it all myself and I advise you to do the same if you want to discuss this topic. You should also look at TM text messages and images and then you will see where the kid was in his life and what he was all into. They also found robbery tools at TM house and stolen jewelry.

    Again this is not something Im making up, it is all in the documentation.

    So this is the information I used to make my opinion.

    You must understand this trial is a political effort, if they were both black or both white nobody would care. And GZ isnt even white, hes latino but the media keeps calling him white. for political purposes. They can only do that because his last name is zimmerman. If he had a hispanic last name you wouldnt hear anything about this case.. Its insane.


    You have to look at the facts not just with your emotions. Some on here go totally by emotions and you tend to do that but I think you have actually a good blend of both emotions and reason once you calm down and think things through. If after you think it through you still dont agree with me, I respect your opinion and will not dislike you and still would like to be your friend on here.

    peace
    I disagree with much of this, but I don't want to discuss the case. I'm happy to let it play out. Maybe after that. It annoyed me how you brought it up in the guise of something else.
    Last edited by Syn7; 06-29-2013 at 04:48 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCo KungFu View Post
    You can be concerned all you want. Live in paranoia that the evil purple goblins are stealing your cheerios and probing you with tootsie rolls all you want. But walking down the street isn't illegal. And irrational paranoia doesn't give one the right to play vigilante.

    You trail someone in a car, they get suspicious. You get out of that car and then chase them on foot, they have every right to perceive YOU as the threat because you have now initiated a hostile act.
    the neighborhood block watch captiain maintaining visual contact with someone while he waits for the cops to come so he can give them an exact location does not constitute vigilante. If anyone is paranoid about monsters under their bed its you thinking the neighborhood block watch captain zimmmerman is some kind of racist pedophilic vigilante. put the koolaid down. Get serious.
    Last edited by KungFubar; 06-29-2013 at 05:23 PM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    It annoyed me how you brought it up in the guise of something else.
    guise? paranoid much?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by KungFubar View Post
    the neighborhood block watch captiain maintaining visual contact with someone while he waits for the cops to come so he can give them an exact location does not constitute vigilante. If anyone is paranoid about monsters under their bed its you thinking the neighborhood block watch captain zimmmerman is some kind of racist pedophilic vigilante. put the koolaid down. Get serious.
    Zimmerman was not part of a recognized watch group. This was reported over a year ago, you need to catch up on the details. He was never vetted by police, he was never trained (actual registered watch groups receive training) and he was never associated on even a casual basis by the majority of the neighborhood, as a watch person, let alone "captain." He and a couple buddies decided they would take it in their own capacity to police a neighborhood that had not desired their attention. All this was reported over a year ago.

    Second, its on the 911 recording that he chased Martin on foot after the dispatcher already told him to stay in the car and back off.

    Third, and this important because people like you don't seem to comprehend reality. Martin did nothing illegal. Walking down the street is not a crime. Walking down the street with a hoody on is still not a crime. Zimm had absolutely no reason to be profiling the kid and no reason to be following him. Now its a public street, he can do so, sure. And on that see my first post in this thread. Martin had every single right to perceive Zimmerman as the aggressor, to feel danger for his own safety, and to use (under FL law no less) any means of force to enact his own rescue.

    I'd suggest you actually read something on the case, and for that matter, law in your own state, before you start throwing accusations on who is drinking what flavor of kool-aid. Oh, and take your straw man and stick it. No where did I say Zimm was racist (although his former coworkers already went on record that he is) or a pedo. He IS an idiot blowhard that had no control over his emotions and entered a situation he was entirely untrained to resolve. He incorrectly assessed a threat, made himself an aggressor in the process, and ignored the directive of the actual law enforcement rep (the dispatcher, who IS trained on advising civilians through crisis scenarios). And you know what, he's lucky he did run into an unarmed kid. Because had Martin been packing and decided to open up on him, under FL law he'd have had every right to do so.

    Which makes me ask again. Why has no one mentioned that Martin is just as protected by SYG as Zim? Until someone can prove Martin was breaking a law, he had every right to use force in his own defense. All the law demands is the impression of imminent harm. (On the side, that loose requirement is exactly why this law is moronic to the 1000th degree).

  15. #30
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    my info comes from the trial that Ive been watching not from biased obsolete left wing media reports. for the record the 911 operator that you refer to was actually the NON emergency operator it wasnt 911 did not tell him to not follow, they said "You dont need to do that". quite a difference.

    If you watch the trial you will see the director of the neighborhood watch program who works for law enforcement testify that he was the captain of the neighborhood watch and she commended him on what he did. Go watch it before you continue to embarrass yourself with biased obsolete information. aka koolaid.

    additionally SYG is a non issue because he is not using that as a defense. His defense is simple self defense. They are not using the stand your ground law as a defense.

    It seems you do not even know the basics of this case. Get yourself updated on the facts

    Also, I did say that I acknowledge that TM was not doing anything wrong. he had all the right. He was reported for suspicious behavior. Heres what you do, get dressed up in a hoodie, wear your pants down past your ass, then at night go walking aimlessly around an a bank, or a mall parking lot, or an apartment complex especially a gated one and see how long it takes for the cops to show up and inform you that you are acting suspicious.

    Zimmerman kept his distance and when he lost visual contact with TM he turned around and walked back to his car, on his way back he was ambushed by TM, thats what got him killed, thats why its justifiable homicide because he bashed his head on the concrete. and no that wouldnt count as SYG for TM.

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