Chum Kiu Question

[ShortBridge]

Hey guys, I haven't posted here in quite a while, but was training this morning with a few of our guys and we were picking through this form in excruciating detail. We started talking about the step forward at the end of what I call the 3rd section (@ ~2:00 in this video for reference): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5p-YpR2JuQ

By the way, I just picked the first Chum Kiu video that I found, I have no affiliation with this particular one.

I know it's possible to over-think some of these things and don't usually spend too much time doing so, but I thought I would ask for some thoughts/knowledge/experienced opinions on what function this step might serve.

Thanks in advance, I know there are some very knowledgeable and experienced people who were (still are?) regulars here.

Jon

[ShortBridge]

I appreciate your enthusiasm. Do you have any perspectives on this particular expression?

[ShortBridge]

Okay, I wasn't looking for entertainment so much as discussion, but I'll look forward to your insights as well as others, when you are ready to share them.

I will say, for my own part, that I don't claim to know for certain. My interest in learning from those of you who might is sincere.

[KPM]

Ok, at risk of simply being a source of laughter for T Ray, I'll bite. I see this as training to generate power from a ballistic step. I do it with a little more "umph" when I train Chum Kiu. The right foot snaps forward with a little stomp just as the palms snap out. This type of power generation is huge in Southern Mantis, not so much in Wing Chun. In Southern Mantis it is trained right from the beginning when you start training footwork. In Wing Chun I have used it and seen it used to disrupt someone's balance during Chi Sao. Your mileage may vary.

[ShortBridge]

Thank you, Keith.

[WC1277]

The jist of it is for developing balance recovery but it's actually two parts. Most don't do the second part and many do the first part incorrectly hence nullifying the point.

The correct way to do it for proper development is to first make sure you double jut while your legs are still spaced apart unlike the video example shown. The pushing out to double palm should be simultaneous and end at the same time as your feet come together. Just by doing this alone you should be able to feel the test of both balance and rooting on your structure. The second part is to "allow" your body to gently lose it's balance backwards and "catching" your balance with that step before rotating 180 degrees ON YOUR HEELS. Just stepping back serves absolutely no developmental purpose whatsoever...

[Vajramusti]

The jist of it is for developing balance recovery but it's actually two parts. Most don't do the second part and many do the first part incorrectly hence nullifying the point.

The correct way to do it for proper development is to first make sure you double jut while your legs are still spaced apart unlike the video example shown. The pushing out to double palm should be simultaneous and end at the same time as your feet come together. Just by doing this alone you should be able to feel the test of both balance and rooting on your structure. The second part is to "allow" your body to gently lose it's balance backwards and "catching" your balance with that step before rotating 180 degrees ON YOUR HEELS. Just stepping back serves absolutely no developmental purpose whatsoever...

--------------------------------------------

Good description and a good way to do it.

[anerlich]

Yes I do.......but I was hoping to be entertained by how others interpret this one first.

My lineage's CK doesn't contain this particular move, so I have little to offer ... not even criticism and insults.

[Grumblegeezer]

I cant wait to read the imaginative "applications" for this one!

C'mon, T-Ray. It really puts a damper on conversation when you make a smug-sounding post like that. Regardless of how much you may know about your Wing Chun, other groups may do things differently. That's their WC. Chum Kiu is performed with a lot of variations. Unless you know why people chose to do the movements in a different way, it's premature to pass judgement. Maybe they have some good ideas, maybe not. But coming off like you have exclusive knowledge doesn't impress anyone. Especially on a forum with some members who've practiced WC for 20, 30, even 40 years.

On the other hand, you may be right. People do come up with pretty bizarre interpretaions.

WC1277 said it was about balance, allowing your center of gravity to go backwards and then to recover. Joy noted that this was valid, but it is not the way I have been taught. When I look at Joy's teacher, Augustine Fong (see below) I don't see the balance teetering backwards just before the rearward step. Of course, that's not the sort of thing you can always pick up visually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmLciBA5ILw

Now here's a 30-year old video of My old sifu doing chum kiu. The movements in question appear at about 3:45. He interjects a double upwards man-sau at the point where the feet pull up together, then proceeds into the double jut sau and palm strikes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_SI9znsJQ

Clearly this movement sequence would be used differently than the previous version. Like most double movements, these are typically applied singly and are far easier to understand in that light. The man sau can be an upward strike or used deflect a descending blow from an extended arm or weapon, such as a stick, with the jut sau following the energy downward and terminating in a centerline palm strike. But these movements are essentially about coordinating the energy of the arms, body, and footwork and are not limited to a particular application!

[k gledhill]

http://youtu.be/J1Y-Q9MJEN0

[ShortBridge]

Thank you to everyone who had replied so far.

[LFJ]

This action is used in a lot of Northern kung fu. It is underused by many in application though, and is almost completely ignored in VT, as are some other Northern actions found in the VT forms. But I have seen it explained in VT as a means of teaching one to generate power even when not in ready stance.

The significant thing about the stance is it makes for the longest range strike. If you stand feet together and reach a target (try it on the wall now), then take one foot back into normal fighting stance, you'll no longer be able to reach it, by a significant margin. It can be done squared or side-on, obviously squared is the preferred method in VT.

Power is generated from the stance, snapping the feet together and springing the body up into the strike. The weakness is that it is susceptible to takedowns if not done quickly with proper timing, but it can certainly be useful in some situations. It makes one's range deceptive, as the front foot need not move. The feet suddenly snap together and the target is reachable. It can continue forward to close the gap, or fall back into a fighting stance if needed, as done in the CK form.

[Graham H]

This movement is not a fighting application. It's for training balance and control through striking

[Grumblegeezer]

...The significant thing about the stance is it makes for the longest range strike.

...Power is generated from the stance, snapping the feet together and springing the body up into the strike.

...It makes one's range deceptive, as the front foot need not move. The feet suddenly snap together and the target is reachable.

...It can continue forward to close the gap, or fall back into a fighting stance if needed, as done in the CK form.

Thanks, LFJ. All very interesting points. I believe all of the above apply to the way I was taught. That last point, about being able to step through and continue forward or step back is essential, but would not be possible if you were not well balanced and had your weight teetering toward the edge of the heels as suggested by WC1277.

BTW. I just added the missing video of LT's Chum Kiu to my previous post.