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Thread: Gun defense

  1. #46
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    Don't forget, there is more than just bullets...and its enough to break your concentration, especially if it cooks the side of your face.

    Just saying...
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
    Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

  2. #47
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    Something to consider. If you can grab a simi-automatic pistol around the slide while it's being fired it will cause the next round to breach rendering it useless until that round is ejected and the next round is loaded. That is if they can get your hands off the gun to reload it. The idea is to grab the gun and either twist your body or push the gun off line or both which hopefully will get you out of the line of fire. The gun fires, hopefully missing you, and then jams, and you follow up by taking the gun and or breaking as many body parts as you can before running away.

    BTW, I do realize just how dangerous this situation is, but if you feel that your life is on the line then I'd recommend doing something other than staring down the barrel.

    Here's another little tidbit. Right handed shooters almost always pull the gun to the right and left handed shooters to the left, especially in a pressure situation. This means that if you have to run away, then moving towards their weak side is preferable. The more distance away from the gun, or if you need that extra second to draw on somebody, the more this tactic could benefit you. Notice I said could. It's a shit sandwich anyway you look at it.
    Last edited by GoldenBrain; 09-18-2013 at 04:54 PM.

  3. #48
    Hey Yum Cha, I know there is muzzle flash, heat of the barrel, and most importantly, the BIG LOUD BANG happening, but if you're 100% committed to the take away technique, those things won't matter. If you're distracted by those things when you're in a life or death situation, then you're not 100% committed to the technique. Just saying...

  4. #49
    Sometimes it's not a choice. Powder burns can be pretty ugly. There is also a ton of pressure leaving that gun(and the cylinder with revolvers) that can straight mess you up under the right conditions. I don't have an issue with gun defense techniques, I just don't think people should delude themselves into thinking it's more effective than it is. And I must reiterate, if the intent is to kill, you won't get anywhere near them. If the intent is to not kill, then why you doing that high risk stuff?

    You have to screw up pretty bad to even be in a situation where disarming would even be possible. Harm reduction should be what you practice, that will save significantly more lives than LARPing with a toy gun. So what is really a better use of your very limited time? Drilling low percentage techniques? I think not.

    If you really think you stuff works, then do as David says. Load up an airsoft pistol, throw on some eye protection and give it a try. Film it, show us. None of that "ok here, hold your hand out like this" stuff. Let the guy stand 5 feet away from you and let somebody else say "go". See what happens. I think misrepresenting such techniques is irresponsible and dangerous. It should not be tolerated within the community if we cma guys want to be respected and not looked at as a bunch of flower dancers. That's on us.

  5. #50
    Hey Syn7, I'm not sure if your remarks are directed at me or not, but if it is, anyone who knows me know that I'm not given to bragging or exaggerating what I can do. The techniques I teach are for training LEO's only. I may decide to show it to the public on YouTube one day (and will certainly post it on this forum), but I want to keep it amongst LEO's for now. I'm not superman nor are my techniques some super duper move, but I know what I can do and demonstrate it all the time. You and anyone else who don't believe me, that is fine since we don't know each other. At the end of the day, are you comfortable with your gun takeaway techniques if the situation ever presents itself? If you are, great. I know I have a higher percentage of success than someone who doesn't practice it.

  6. #51
    Well I am glad to hear you don't teach civilians those kinds of disarming techniques. Sorry, I assumed you did. My bad. I don't remember you saying who you taught it to and I just assumed.

    Anyways, I stand by everything I said, aside from the assumption part. I think there are far more valuable things to be putting time into that will protect you from guns. You can't do it all, so you have to choose what is most likely to be useful. If you're a soldier or a cop I suppose it may not be a bad idea assuming that there is due diligence in being realistic about your chances and being completely honest about how much time it really takes to even makes these things potentially successful. I find it hard to believe that LEO's who learn these things actually put in the time and energy required to make them not a stupid thing to do. Of course there are always exceptions. We've had a few officers come through the gym. They get dropped on the heads like every other rookie who comes to train. That's just how it is.

    So do you guys use airsoft pistols to show the reality of it? Or do you just use a dummy pistol?

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuYui View Post
    I know because I teach and train gun takeaway and we use simunition. Haven't lost that race yet. .
    You are either:
    - lying
    - not going realistically
    - are using shooters who are 10 year old girls.

    You can't go realistically with simmuntions without the shooter starting to develop strategies to counter your takeaways. It's completely impossible to go realistically and never get shot.

  8. #53
    I would spit to his face-eyes.quickly then try to slap the gun out of me
    I dont think scenarios would work well

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    Gun!!!

    Rule 1) Get down low

    Rule 2) Seek an exit

    ^This is effective gun defense.

    Everything that has you trying to disarm, or grab or distract etc etc etc is...well, it's minimally useful at best and a load of crap for the most part.

    Yes indeed, try these moves with an airsoft pistol. You will get shot 99.9% of the time. If you don't believe it, try it. Try as many crazy ass moves as you like. You will get shot pretty much every single time.

    Oh yeah, against a knife? You'll get cut. 99.9% of the time.

    Empty hand vs a weapon? Weapon will prevail 99.9% of the time.

    Has escalation of force taught us nothing and we are all dreaming we are spider man or batman. Get serious with your training people.
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    In active shooter scenarios, it is not recommended that you 'get down low'. It is recommended that you take cover behind something. Bullets travel downward, so most police strategies, getting down low is a last resort course of action.

    As for gun disarms, I agree with you, but heed Dreeben's point on the matter "It is very difficult to pull off during one of those small windows of opportunity, and the odds of success are stacked against you as the twitch of a trigger finger takes less than a second. That being said, it's better to have one technique rather than no techniques as a last ditch effort for survival."
    You do want to get crouch low but not on-your-belly low. You want to be low enough that a shooter spraying a waist-up ton of bullets won't hit you but not so low that you get caught in the head by stuff ****zing alonge the floor. Withd granades, you want to get all the way down.

    And obviously cover and evacuation in both cases.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    In active shooter scenarios, it is not recommended that you 'get down low'. It is recommended that you take cover behind something. Bullets travel downward, so most police strategies, getting down low is a last resort course of action.

    As for gun disarms, I agree with you, but heed Dreeben's point on the matter "It is very difficult to pull off during one of those small windows of opportunity, and the odds of success are stacked against you as the twitch of a trigger finger takes less than a second. That being said, it's better to have one technique rather than no techniques as a last ditch effort for survival."
    No can do on the nixing #1 ~G

    I said get low, not belly crawl. lol
    Cover is not always available.

    Get low, move to the exit.

    In boot camp, the rule is: In a firefight, get low, conserve ammo, move.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  11. #56
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    Aug 2007
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    Midgard
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    he uses simunition.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  12. #57
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    Fremont, CA, U.S.A.
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    Actually, I got the 'don't get low' bit off the Rookies.

    It was the episode that launched the spin-off SWAT, which was one of my fav shows back in the day. Hondo was leading active shooter scenarios and one of the rookies made that mistake, and got this lecture about going low. I just wanted to see how far I'd get with it here on the forum.

    As for training pistol disarms, it's a simple technique. It's not like you have to spend years to learn it. Heck, you can figure it out off the video: Pistol Disarm Demonstration. Odds are that none of us will ever even have the opportunity to use it (same is true for Kwan Dao) but that doesn't mean it's not worth exploring a little. Honestly, how many of you here have been in a situation where someone fired a gun illegally in public? I have. A few times actually. Hmm. Perhaps I need to go home and rethink my life...
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    Honestly, how many of you here have been in a situation where someone fired a gun illegally in public? I have. A few times actually. Hmm. Perhaps I need to go home and rethink my life...
    Well, you're American, so us Canadians expect that you get shot at at least 3 to 5 times before you get to work in the morning and then at least another 7 to 10 times on the way home.

    Otherwise, yes. Living in Toronto gives the Canadian a more aligned American perspective when it comes to gun use in crimes, in public spaces etc. It's no Chicago, but we have some remarkably stupid and brazen idiotic gang members in this town an quite frankly, not enough po-pos to lock their stupid asses up.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  14. #59
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    You Canadians have the wrong impression of us, eh?

    We only get shot at 1 or 2 times a day, not 10 to 15 times.

    As an aside, I saw a full-page letter from Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz in the NYT today.

    An Open Letter from Howard Schultz, ceo of Starbucks Coffee Company

    Tuesday, September 17, 2013

    Posted by Howard Schultz, Starbucks chairman, president and chief executive officer

    Dear Fellow Americans,

    Few topics in America generate a more polarized and emotional debate than guns. In recent months, Starbucks stores and our partners (employees) who work in our stores have been thrust unwillingly into the middle of this debate. That’s why I am writing today with a respectful request that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas.

    From the beginning, our vision at Starbucks has been to create a “third place” between home and work where people can come together to enjoy the peace and pleasure of coffee and community. Our values have always centered on building community rather than dividing people, and our stores exist to give every customer a safe and comfortable respite from the concerns of daily life.

    We appreciate that there is a highly sensitive balance of rights and responsibilities surrounding America’s gun laws, and we recognize the deep passion for and against the “open carry” laws adopted by many states. (In the United States, “open carry” is the term used for openly carrying a firearm in public.) For years we have listened carefully to input from our customers, partners, community leaders and voices on both sides of this complicated, highly charged issue.

    Our company’s longstanding approach to “open carry” has been to follow local laws: we permit it in states where allowed and we prohibit it in states where these laws don’t exist. We have chosen this approach because we believe our store partners should not be put in the uncomfortable position of requiring customers to disarm or leave our stores. We believe that gun policy should be addressed by government and law enforcement—not by Starbucks and our store partners.

    Recently, however, we’ve seen the “open carry” debate become increasingly uncivil and, in some cases, even threatening. Pro-gun activists have used our stores as a political stage for media events misleadingly called “Starbucks Appreciation Days” that disingenuously portray Starbucks as a champion of “open carry.” To be clear: we do not want these events in our stores. Some anti-gun activists have also played a role in ratcheting up the rhetoric and friction, including soliciting and confronting our customers and partners.

    For these reasons, today we are respectfully requesting that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas—even in states where “open carry” is permitted—unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel.

    I would like to clarify two points. First, this is a request and not an outright ban. Why? Because we want to give responsible gun owners the chance to respect our request—and also because enforcing a ban would potentially require our partners to confront armed customers, and that is not a role I am comfortable asking Starbucks partners to take on. Second, we know we cannot satisfy everyone. For those who oppose “open carry,” we believe the legislative and policy-making process is the proper arena for this debate, not our stores. For those who champion “open carry,” please respect that Starbucks stores are places where everyone should feel relaxed and comfortable. The presence of a weapon in our stores is unsettling and upsetting for many of our customers.

    I am proud of our country and our heritage of civil discourse and debate. It is in this spirit that we make today’s request. Whatever your view, I encourage you to be responsible and respectful of each other as citizens and neighbors.

    Sincerely,

    Howard Schultz
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  15. #60
    Laroux, do you teach martial arts classes or LEO's? Do you have a family, a job, go out with friends, other hobbies? Because you can train every minute of your life until you die and never cover EVERY possible scenario of "what if". But you think I can cover every possible scenario of "if they do this, you do this" with LEO's in a training class? When would they ever have time to go out and do their jobs? Sounds like you're one of those guys who go to seminars and are constantly asking, "...but what if I do this...?". SERIOUSLY??? This is your arguement against what I say I can do? WOW!!!

    Don't go reading more into what I wrote and don't misinterpret it either; what I can do is not mystical, but due to lots of training, testing, misteps, more trial and error, and honing this particular set of skills based on the highest percentage of likely encounters - from the front and the rear.

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