Morsi is done!

[Syn7]

Army Ousts Egypt’s President; Morsi Denounces ‘Military Coup’


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/wo...anted=all&_r=0

What happened to "over my dead body? I guess looking at a well armed unit of soldiers took the piss outta that real quick.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0Trsszw1Uo

[Drake]

There's a lot more going on there than the media is reporting.

[Syn7]

I bet. I saw that "No leave" list. Are people bouncing out or is this the beginning of a big fight?

[Syn7]

I bet. I saw that "No leave" list. Are people bouncing out or is this the beginning of a big fight?

Apparently the latter

You can't completely shut the brotherhood out of the process. No matter how you look at this, they have a ton of support. If democracy really is the goal here, they have to have a voice. But what happens when that voice is advocating violence and not respecting the process that gave them power in the first place? That goes for all parties concerned.

This brings up the philosophical question that we, the west, have been debating forever now. Do you prop up a douchebag strongman that can maintain order with a strong fist, or do we assist or back off and let a legit revolution take place?

Of course many people would jump at #2. But there comes a point when you have to think about the greater implications here. This isn't some compartmentalized backwater.

Whatever happens, I hope they find some peace and this doesn't last forever.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not to say I told you so , but...

[Syn7]

Not to say I told you so , but...

"Gotta plow a 4 to appreciate an 8" - Daniel Tosh

[David Jamieson]

There is more there going on than what we know.
A democratically elected leader is ousted by the military in what amounts to a coup and then his party members are persecuted and jailed.
I think the key words that are making people in teh west ok with this action are "Muslim Brotherhood".

the seems to scare the crap out of soccer mom thinkers here. It's easy to sell this action with those words, but if it was reported as is: "Democratically elected leader removed by military after protests"...I don't think people would be ok with that. I'm pretty sure that Morsi was somewhat moderate.

[Scott R. Brown]

The question is not whether there was a coup or not, but "When is it appropriate/acceptable to stage a coup?"

If the elected government leaders are not abiding by the laws of the land by using inappropriate authority to override the constitution, then those who swore to uphold the constitution have a legal and moral responsibility to fulfill their oaths to defend and protect the constitution!

This is what the discussion must address then!

1) Did the government, represented by Morsi, exceed its constitutional powers?

2) If so, who has the power to challenge him?

3) Those with the power then, must be able to justify their actions from a legal stand point!

Coups are never considered legal because, by definition, they are outside the bounds of accepted law, but when the government does not follow the laws they are elected to protect, defend and enforce, do they not then lose their own moral standing to complain when they are forcefully removed from office?

[David Jamieson]

The question is not whether there was a coup or not, but "When is it appropriate/acceptable to stage a coup?"

If the elected government leaders are not abiding by the laws of the land by using inappropriate authority to override the constitution, then those who swore to uphold the constitution have a legal and moral responsibility to fulfill their oaths to defend and protect the constitution!

This is what the discussion must address then!

1) Did the government, represented by Morsi, exceed its constitutional powers?

2) If so, who has the power to challenge him?

3) Those with the power then, must be able to justify their actions from a legal stand point!

Coups are never considered legal because, by definition, they are outside the bounds of accepted law, but when the government does not follow the laws they are elected to protect, defend and enforce, do they not then lose their own moral standing to complain when they are forcefully removed from office?

I agree with your 1, 2 and 3 points here Scott. Mainly because they have not been answered as of yet.

[Syn7]

The media, and more specifically the American media, is not really that reliable when it comes to just getting straight facts w/o an opinion anymore. Gone are the days when you get an honest report every the hour on the radio.

I have seen clips of opinions from people on many sides of this and I'm not sure what to believe.

What I do believe is that the real power is was and will continue to be in the hands of those with the attack helicopters. As long as they can get enough people to side with them, that is. But a majority is not needed, just a respectable percentage to help justify taking action, whether it's right or wrong.

It seems that Morsi didn't fulfill his mandate. To me, that is enough for change. Violent change? That's a tough one. If it was within a well established democracy with a strong constitution and all levels of government being represented, I would say NO. But this is something entirely different, IMO. Framing a constitution that will make everyone happy is not an easy task.

Let's not forget that even in the American revolution, 30% of the population didn't want to go to war with the monarchy. A lot of people say that this means 30% supported the king, but I don't believe that. You have to consider all the reasons why people wouldn't want war. We have a bad habit of looking back at things in a way that never actually happened to make ourselves feel better. This thing in egypt is messy and it will continue to be messy, no matter what the truth is.

[David Jamieson]

What I do believe is that the real power is was and will continue to be in the hands of those with the attack helicopters.

This is, was and ever shall be the way it is.

When Pandora's box got opened, it was the only way things were gonna go for us all. History, records, whether simple observation or eloquently worded diatribes show this to be the case.

[SimonM]

There is more there going on than what we know.
A democratically elected leader is ousted by the military in what amounts to a coup and then his party members are persecuted and jailed.
I think the key words that are making people in teh west ok with this action are "Muslim Brotherhood".

the seems to scare the crap out of soccer mom thinkers here. It's easy to sell this action with those words, but if it was reported as is: "Democratically elected leader removed by military after protests"...I don't think people would be ok with that. I'm pretty sure that Morsi was somewhat moderate.

I'm 100% with David on this one.

I don't like Morsi or the Muslim Brotherhood one iota. They're basically the same schtick as the religious right I despise in North America after all - just a different language to the prayers.

That being said, every bit of power the MB has was given to them by legitimate democratic election. To take that power away just because they're total *******s....

It's not the sign of a healthy democracy.

I mean, you don't see the Canadian army deposing Harper.

[David Jamieson]

I mean, you don't see the Canadian army deposing Harper.

To be fair, we're not really making much effort at protesting against him. lol

[Syn7]

I'm 100% with David on this one.

I don't like Morsi or the Muslim Brotherhood one iota. They're basically the same schtick as the religious right I despise in North America after all - just a different language to the prayers.

That being said, every bit of power the MB has was given to them by legitimate democratic election. To take that power away just because they're total *******s....

It's not the sign of a healthy democracy.

I mean, you don't see the Canadian army deposing Harper.

Well, they actually have a ton of international support, especially in the middle east. Even Iran is helping them out. Think about that one. Of course this goes back to sympathies during the revolution, but still. Shiah helping Sunni? That's not something we hear too much about over here in the west.


Ok, Harper is a dick, but come on. Not the same thing.

If he tried to shut down parliament and create a new one that only represented conservatives while simultaneously re-writing the constitution to favour Christian fundamentalists, you can best believe that he would be removed one way or another. Of course that will never happen. We have those checks and balances to prevent that. Egypt does not. Framing a constitution and following one are two completely separate things. They don't have a democracy, they are trying to build one. Huge difference. If anything, this should show us how much we take our own framework for granted.

[SimonM]

To be fair, we're not really making much effort at protesting against him. lol

Frankly I'm at such a loss about who I actually would trust in power at the federal level that I've basically been hiding in municipal activism for the last couple of years.