I'm looking for a strong, heavy monk's spade. Any help?

[MasterKiller]

Too heavy? But weren't the original spades, that monks actually carried, very heavy? I can't imagine that the commercial versions we have now, that are made by machines from cheaper materials, are actually heavier than the old ones. That thought just seems strange to me.

I mean, I could be wrong. I just want something authentic. I know I'm not as strong as these monks were, but it'd be a goal to work toward, at least.

A monk spade is a shovel. How heavy is a shovel, maybe 7 pounds? That one is like 14 pounds and the shovel end is much heavier than the sickle side. It ruins the mobility and fluidity of the weapon and basically turns it into a piece of exercise equipment. Which is fine, if that's what you're after, but you might as well swing a kettlebell around.

[Syn7]

A monk spade is a shovel. How heavy is a shovel, maybe 7 pounds? That one is like 14 pounds and the shovel end is much heavier than the sickle side. It ruins the mobility and fluidity of the weapon and basically turns it into a piece of exercise equipment. Which is fine, if that's what you're after, but you might as well swing a kettlebell around.

My thoughts exactly!

[Sha Seng]

...Oh. Yeah. That makes sense, I guess.

Before I decided what kind of spade I wanted, I tried looking up antique spades so that I'd know what they were originally like. I've always just wanted an authentic one. But when I couldn't find any good information, I somehow got in my head that they were very heavy.

Admittedly, letting the conversation between Lu Zhishen and the blacksmith that made his spade influence my thinking was completely silly.

I don't know why it didn't occur to me to just ask you all what an "authentic" spade would be. Whoops.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Kung Fu is what you make of it. Just because a particular weapon is too much for you should not set the standard for anyone else.

Sha Seng is entitled to have his own experience. It is his road.

By the way....

http://theriverlands.blogspot.com/20...nks-spade.html

The following is not Monk Spade Lite...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-qrz_9tSi8

On heavy weapon training.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ8Z1XOoCOM

Some weapons survived not because of their practicality, but for the health benefits they offer. I admit that there are monk spade forms created for looks only, requiring something light. The monk spade, like the Kwan dao, helps develop the user's strength.

In the Chinese military examination, one was required to do a flower with a 200lb Kwan Dao (some say Tsai Yan Dao) and then spin it overhead.


mickey

[Lucas]

In the Chinese military examination, one was required to do a flower with a 200lb Kwan Dao (some say Tsai Yan Dao) and then spin it overhead.


mickey

only 200lb? what a bunch of sissies.

[MightyB]

only 200lb? what a bunch of sissies.

[GeneChing]

What! *throws hands up* So what you're saying is that I need to visit China to get what I want. Arggh.

Well, you can always modify equipment yourself. Every weapon practitioner should know how to disassemble and assemble their weapon.

I haven't seen that one, but I'll take a look. I've already grabbed a couple of spade-related products from the store.

The monk spade photo on the back of my Shaolin Trips DVD is the same as the Featured Weapon I spoke of.

But weren't the original spades, that monks actually carried, very heavy?

I'm not confident there ever were 'original' spades. I brought the development of them as weapons into question in my cover story The Spade, the Whip and the Mountain Gate
in the Shaolin Special 2012.

A monk spade is a shovel.

This is a great misconception based on popular myth. A shovel is concave, like a spoon, to shovel dirt. A monk spade is flat. Try dig a hole with one. You'll see what I mean rather quickly.

It ruins the mobility and fluidity of the weapon and basically turns it into a piece of exercise equipment. Which is fine, if that's what you're after, but you might as well swing a kettlebell around.

This is true of all pole arms. Honestly, when are you going to get the chance to use something like a monk spade for self defense? I know, I know, zombie apocalypse, but that might not come in our lifetimes. I'm not against kettlebell training at all, but personally, I like swinging weapons. It won't save me in the cage or even on the street, but it's fun to me. There's a key sentence in the cover story above "Yanran practices monk spade because it is good for training endurance and long weapon coordination." I enjoy working heavy weapons for the gestalt of it - the endurance, the weight lifting, the coordination - but most of all, I just like swinging weapons around.

[MasterKiller]

This is a great misconception based on popular myth. A shovel is concave, like a spoon, to shovel dirt. A monk spade is flat. Try dig a hole with one. You'll see what I mean rather quickly.

Flat? Hmmm, you mean like this Roman shovel?



or this



How about this?

This is true of all pole arms. Honestly, when are you going to get the chance to use something like a monk spade for self defense? I know, I know, zombie apocalypse, but that might not come in our lifetimes. I'm not against kettlebell training at all, but personally, I like swinging weapons. It won't save me in the cage or even on the street, but it's fun to me. There's a key sentence in the cover story above "Yanran practices monk spade because it is good for training endurance and long weapon coordination." I enjoy working heavy weapons for the gestalt of it - the endurance, the weight lifting, the coordination - but most of all, I just like swinging weapons around.

There's a difference between swinging a weapon around gracefully and swinging a weapon around ungracefully.

You could always substitute your wooden staff for a piece of heavy steel tubing, but it sort of ruins the whole point of it, you know?

[GeneChing]

Sure, that ancient shovel is flat, but it has edges. The monk spade has none. It can't really scoop....unless it's getting pizzas from out of the oven. The other shoves still have some concavity. They aren't truly flat like a monk spade. I suppose that's why we call it a spade, not a shovel. But spade heads are usually set at an angle, so it's still unresolved.

There's a difference between doing anything gracefully and ungracefully, even posting here on the forum.

I used to work my staff form with solid iron bar, back when I was a *ahem* younger man. It didn't really work for BSL staff because there were so many long jabs, but it was fun and informative. The blades of a pole arm forces you to have one more degree of coordination because if your blade isn't oriented properly, you can stab your shin. I remember tearing up so many pairs of Kung Fu pants when I first learned Kwan Dao. The back hook used to catch on the blousing portion near the ankle.

[Lucas]

for some reason i think i remember reading and article that had a monk with an antique spade he was showing. Gene?

[MasterKiller]

I used to work my staff form with solid iron bar, back when I was a *ahem* younger man. It didn't really work for BSL staff because there were so many long jabs, but it was fun and informative.

This is retarded CMA mentality.

"If a 3 minute horse stance is perfectly adequate for conditioning, why not do it for a whole hour!!"

[GeneChing]

Wait, you're talking about the Featured Weapon, right? Actually, the wielder was not a monk. He believed his monk spade dated back to the Qing. Maybe it did.

I should qualify my point about monk spades. There is evidence of them existing as far back as the Ming, but there are some confounding factors as to its authenticity as a weapon, specifically temple (or ritual) weapons and opera weapons. That being said, it's a bit like our Shaolin Boxing before 1780 thread. Sure, Shaolin martial arts probably don't go all the way back to Tamo and Monk Spades probably don't go all the way back to Xuanzhang, but they potentially go as far back as the early Qing. In Western terms, that is as potentially far back as the founding of the United States of America. So when I postulate that the Monk Spade may not be as old as it claims to be, it still might be pretty old, unlike say, the Nandao, which is modern, created only a few years ago. With so much discord between modern and traditional in America, it's easy to get confused about when the cut-off for such a distinction is made; that cut-off is case dependent.

This is retarded CMA mentality.

"If a 3 minute horse stance is perfectly adequate for conditioning, why not do it for a whole hour!!"

Experimentation is retarded? It's not like we did iron bar conditioning every class. It wasn't a part of regular training, just a diversion every once in a while to keep it fresh. I've never done hour-long horse stance, nor did I do really long sessions regularly, but I did do some duration horse stance sessions, again, just to push myself.

[Alex Córdoba]

...Oh. Yeah. That makes sense, I guess.

Before I decided what kind of spade I wanted, I tried looking up antique spades so that I'd know what they were originally like. I've always just wanted an authentic one. But when I couldn't find any good information, I somehow got in my head that they were very heavy.

Admittedly, letting the conversation between Lu Zhishen and the blacksmith that made his spade influence my thinking was completely silly.

I don't know why it didn't occur to me to just ask you all what an "authentic" spade would be. Whoops.

Here is monk Shi De Chao performing with his favorite' because it's actually not a weapon:

http://vimeo.com/661545

[GeneChing]

I was at that event, but I missed Dechao by a day.

[Alex Córdoba]

I was at that event, but I missed Dechao by a day.

I love the last 'hooooooooooiiiii'