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Thread: I'm looking for a strong, heavy monk's spade. Any help?

  1. #31

    This is a good thread.

    Thanks for those links, Mickey! I wasn't only concerned with weight for what I thought was authenticity's sake, so it's nice to see that my heavy weapon training idea wasn't so unrealistic. You know, given time. I'd read about it some, but I hadn't actually seen it done like this until now.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    The monk spade photo on the back of my Shaolin Trips DVD is the same as the Featured Weapon I spoke of.
    Oh! In that case, I can't wait for the magazine to arrive. I really wanted to get a closer look at that spade.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    I'm not confident there ever were 'original' spades.
    I did read your article about the questionable history of the monk's spade, but regardless of how or why they came about, there were originals. Like, ones that were made by blacksmiths for martial artists before everything became so commercialized. Maybe I shouldn't have said "that monks actually carried", but you understand.

    It doesn't actually bother me a bit that these weapons might be a product of nothing but popular legend. If anything, I think that makes them more interesting. I like spades so much because of the ideas associated with them - that they were tools for helping people before they were tools for hurting people. You know, like, weeding crops, or digging out foundations for houses, or burying the dead. I'm new to all of this, but the monks who invented these martial arts were Buddhist, right? And isn't the whole point of Buddhism compassion? So monk's spades, even if they were never really used, seem to embody that nicely.

    I don't really care if they're practical weapons or not. When will I be in a situation where I need to defend myself with any kung fu weapon? As an aside, I find it ridiculous that someone said these would be good for killing zombies. But it is true that practicing with a big, heavy weapon would improve my strength and coordination, which would help me use any hand-to-hand weapon more effectively, including those I might actually have nearby in a pinch.

    *steps off of soapbox*

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Córdoba View Post
    Here is monk Shi De Chao performing with his favorite' because it's actually not a weapon:

    http://vimeo.com/661545
    Oh, hey, I missed this post. ...That is a very intimidating man... But what do you mean? It's his favorite because it's not a weapon? Like, how so?
    Last edited by Sha Seng; 07-09-2013 at 02:42 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sha Seng View Post
    Thanks for those links, Mickey! I wasn't only concerned with weight for what I thought was authenticity's sake.
    monk spade is not a heavy weapon.
    LOL U FAIL
    Last edited by bawang; 07-09-2013 at 04:25 PM.

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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    monk spade is not a REAL weapon.
    I fixed that for you guys.
    -Golden Arms-

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Arms View Post
    I fixed that for you guys.
    your mother is not a real weapon

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  5. #35
    We still use spades today for gardening and farming. You can find one at the hardware store and you can see the similarities. And given that most people believe that many of the "traditional" weapons were whatever they had at hand, it stands to reason that it started with the farm tool and evolved into all that ornamental stuff over time. First just beefing it up to make it a better weapon, since you already learned spade and all. Then adding all the features as time went on. No?

    So wouldn't an "authentic" spade simply be that farm tool? And like all tools back then, I'm sure there were a few variations and innovations as well. I mean for actual farming.


    I can appreciate using heavy things for strength, but in actual use, something you can move easily, smoothly, fast and with precision would be ideal, no?

    Do you think monks had fighting spades and training spades? One strong but light and balanced perfectly and one big and klunky to work out with? You can build strength and condition yourself with the big one, and train speed and spar with the combat version? I'm just guessing here, but that would make sense to me.

    Wasn't the first MA's in Shaolin imported from the people who came there? Teaching the techniques they used and fostered for actual defense? So why not a farmer joining up and being like "oh yeah and we have had success in using this tool for defense, here is how we use it"???
    Last edited by Syn7; 07-09-2013 at 08:47 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    We still use spades today for gardening and farming. You can find one at the hardware store and you can see the similarities. And given that most people believe that many of the "traditional" weapons were whatever they had at hand, it stands to reason that it started with the farm tool and evolved into all that ornamental stuff over time. First just beefing it up to make it a better weapon, since you already learned spade and all. Then adding all the features as time went on. No?

    So wouldn't an "authentic" spade simply be that farm tool? And like all tools back then, I'm sure there were a few variations and innovations as well. I mean for actual farming.


    I can appreciate using heavy things for strength, but in actual use, something you can move easily, smoothly, fast and with precision would be ideal, no?

    Do you think monks had fighting spades and training spades? One strong but light and balanced perfectly and one big and klunky to work out with? You can build strength and condition yourself with the big one, and train speed and spar with the combat version? I'm just guessing here, but that would make sense to me.

    Wasn't the first MA's in Shaolin imported from the people who came there? Teaching the techniques they used and fostered for actual defense? So why not a farmer joining up and being like "oh yeah and we have had success in using this tool for defense, here is how we use it"???
    no.
    sdfsddgdfgdfg

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  7. #37
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    Originally it was a tool. Just a shovel.
    However, it is fair to say that it's been around at least since the 1600's where it appears in story telling at the very least as the Yueyachan (the crescent moon end monks spade).
    Originally had only utilitarian purpose, like digging holes to bury the dead, picking up waste, etc.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    no.
    sdfsddgdfgdfg
    Nutshell it for me then. I don't really have time to dig myself, but I'm curious.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Sha Seng View Post
    Oh, hey, I missed this post. ...That is a very intimidating man... But what do you mean? It's his favorite because it's not a weapon? Like, how so?
    There are different videos of this presentation of Guarglia's Temple of Zen photo-book, which is lovely, I wish he had paired with a writer. In one of this videos I have heard him say that this is his favorite 'tool' 'shovel' or however you would call it, because it is not an actual weapon.

    My assumption is that monks never fought with it, maybe it was used for cooking pizzas, but eventually became kind of a banner.

  10. #40
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    I tried that at a tournament once but to no avail! Practice vs pajama show, what's in you wallet?
    Everyone was using the Teflon / aluminum blade with all the noises and the shiny stuff while I was using a heavier not as shiny, without the tassel jian and I did a decent job with my form but I ended up in 7th place. I knew I did great so I continue to use my inglorious jian (dao also) due to the weigh and the effort I use to make the various hand movements.

    I tell a few students I may have, to use the tools in their garage approximating some of the 'wushu' instruments because in real life that is the weight that you will use, if and when, such common tools will be used. I have used a ho(s) the garden variety (pun intended, pitch fork, and even the wide snowshovel push tool to practice just because it was part of adapting to the environment. Sometime, I am just too absurd and obtuse for my own good, nonetheless!

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    Originally it was a tool. Just a shovel. ... Originally had only utilitarian purpose, like digging holes to bury the dead, picking up waste, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Córdoba View Post
    In one of this videos I have heard him say that this is his favorite 'tool' 'shovel' or however you would call it, because it is not an actual weapon. ... Eventually became kind of a banner.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sha Seng View Post
    If anything, I think that makes them more interesting. I like spades so much because of the ideas associated with them - that they were tools for helping people before they were tools for hurting people.
    I am pleased.

    Also, my order arrived! Now I have all three Kung Fu Magazines with information on spades, the First World Traditional Wushu Festival DVD so I can see that guy slinging around his antique spade, and the Shaolin Monk Spade DVD so I can see Shi Yanran doing his thing. I hope you're happy, Gene.

    This is all very informative. Yes, I'm enthusiastic.

    Oh dang. That antique monk's spade is at least 100 years old and 35 pounds heavy. That's...yeah. Informative. o_o;

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    Nutshell it for me then. I don't really have time to dig myself, but I'm curious.
    the sun moon shovel is a fantasy weapon created by Chinese opera.

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  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    the sun moon shovel is a fantasy weapon created by Chinese opera.
    I think the biggest key to the validity of this statement is that there's no way you could realistically dig any ground with that big arse half moon blade on the handle.

  14. #44
    Greetings,

    I have seen smaller spade designs, making the "weight issue" depend entirely on the weight of the shaft and not the weight of the ornaments.


    mickey

  15. #45
    Sure. But I'm pretty sure I could wreak some havoc with an ordinary western style garden spade! So If I happen to be edging my lawn when some dbag gets aggressive with me... well, you know where I'm going with this.

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