different expression of xingyi quan?

[reach]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX2gWr2AqNc
I found this clip a while ago. Is this still xingyi? This clip changed my idea of what xingyi is like completely.

xxx

At 2:30 he discussed zuan quan.
My Japanese is not good, but from what I understand. He is saying that in zuan quan you aim for the gaps in their guard. When he demonstrate it with the leading arm, it looks like a jab while moving sideways. When he did it with the rear arm, it's some strange hook like strike.

Really different from the uppercut like motion that most teachers show as zuan quan, like what Mr Yang Hai did in his video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQZ3xn-UmjI

I don't get it. I can see that both ways of doing it can be consistent with the "water flow through gaps" saying in zuan quan, but what exactly make both of them zuan quan? Just the strategy?

xxx

I have never seen heng quan done this way on video. I've always seen heng quan done as a side punch. This clip made heng quan look like a hook.

xxx

This is also the first time I've seen xingyi focus so much on angles. This teacher seem to like flanking his opponent when ever possible. Around 7:28 he even mention it's dangerous to just go straight in. Most xingyi clips gave me the impression that they like overpowering people with forward momentum: parry, slip any incoming punches and force a head on collision.

[William123]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX2gWr2AqNc
I found this clip a while ago. Is this still xingyi? This clip changed my idea of what xingyi is like completely.

xxx

At 2:30 he discussed zuan quan.
My Japanese is not good, but from what I understand. He is saying that in zuan quan you aim for the gaps in their guard. When he demonstrate it with the leading arm, it looks like a jab while moving sideways. When he did it with the rear arm, it's some strange hook like strike.

Really different from the uppercut like motion that most teachers show as zuan quan, like what Mr Yang Hai did in his video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQZ3xn-UmjI

I don't get it. I can see that both ways of doing it can be consistent with the "water flow through gaps" saying in zuan quan, but what exactly make both of them zuan quan? Just the strategy?

xxx

I have never seen heng quan done this way on video. I've always seen heng quan done as a side punch. This clip made heng quan look like a hook.

xxx

This is also the first time I've seen xingyi focus so much on angles. This teacher seem to like flanking his opponent when ever possible. Around 7:28 he even mention it's dangerous to just go straight in. Most xingyi clips gave me the impression that they like overpowering people with forward momentum: parry, slip any incoming punches and force a head on collision.

This is Su Dong Shen a student of Hung Yi Xiang in Taiwan and Hung's Tang Shou Tao school. Xingyi Quan does use angles, it might appear the XYQ fighter charges head on but it is not so.

[reach]

Thanks. That made things a bit clearer. I guess the other clips I've seen just doesn't show that.

[YouKnowWho]

This is also the first time I've seen xingyi focus so much on angles.

http://imageshack.us/a/img692/2721/keepmoving1if.jpg

translate as:

In XingYi, even if you can't find any opening to attack, you still move around like a snake. When you move around, soon or later, you will find opening to attack.

When you move around, you use zigzag footwork. The zigzag footwork is used to move toward your opponent's "side door". The moment that your opponent turns with you and

- your leading foot,
- your opponent's front foot, and
- his back foot,

are all in a straigght line, the moment that you change direction and move into his "front door".

Penetrating the Posts - YouTube
Slow_motion_Penetrating the Posts - YouTube

Similiar footwork is also shown this clip at (1.06 - 1.14).

心æ„�å…*å�ˆæ‹³ Xinyiliuhequan 四把æ�¶ 器械　天é¾�æ*¦è¡“会 - YouTube

[Tea Serpent]

What you are seeing there isn't XingYi.
Basically it is a mixture of XingYi and Bagua. Some parts are almost pure Bagua, most of it is a mixture of the two. That is pretty typical of the school, although Su Dongchen has his own take on it.
He generally focuses on teaching concepts more than traditional applications that stick closely to the actual movement of the form.
The thing about the names for the five elements boxing in XingYi is that the name of each one is a concept. These five happen to be very common terms in most Chinese schools. But different schools interpret them differently.
From what I see he pays more attention to the names of the 5 than to the forms, or how you can use the concepts behind them in fighting.
So Zuan is literally drilling, boring or penetrating something. He also seems to have equated it with Bagua's Chuan Zhang (piercing palm) Chuan being piercing, or penetrating.
You also end up with Heng being literally movement from left to right or right to left along a horizontal plain.
Also these two person drills teach the traditional skills and strategies of the school. But they are not actually application practice for the five fists.
XingYi's footwork is often set at 45 degree angles so you can cut to a person's corners. But this lineages XingYi tends to use bigger steps to cut deeper, while other schools usually use somewhat smaller steps.
Anyways you shouldn't view this video as being representative of the way XingYi fights. This video is just Su Dongchen's personal interpretation of what he learned from Hong Yixiang of Zhang Junfeng's martial arts which come from Tianjin and are the product of several generations of people learning XingYi and Bagua side by side.
In this school while each art is taught separately the various drills and partner practices have evolved so that they compliment each other and naturally blend together in application.

And yes if you see him demonstrate XingYi's five fist form he does all five including Zuan Quan like most people do.

[reach]

Thanks for the information guys.

And yeah the more recent video of Mr Su does show xingyi in a format I'm more used to seeing.

[mawali]

Basically it is a mixture of XingYi and Bagua. Some parts are almost pure Bagua, most of it is a mixture of the two. That is pretty typical of the school, although Su Dongchen has his own take on it.

All of what is called IMA is about change(s). If you do single line posture, traditionally it may be done in a straight line but there are some that are done in a zig-zag format. I learnt xingyi (xing jing 'form') many years ago but I recall certain posture which were not done in a straight line.

[Tea Serpent]

All of what is called IMA is about change(s). If you do single line posture, traditionally it may be done in a straight line but there are some that are done in a zig-zag format. I learnt xingyi (xing jing 'form') many years ago but I recall certain posture which were not done in a straight line.

Did I ever say XingYi only moved in straight lines? Moving in a straight line or not has nothing to with this video or the mixture of Bagua and XingYi shown in it.
B.T.W. my teacher studied under Hong Yi Xiang during the same period as Su Dong Chen. So I know the same style of Bagua and XingYi as he learned and I recognize the different techniques, most of the drills being shown, and which system they come from. Despite Su Dong Chen having his own interpretations and ways of classifying things, what he is showing here is still grounded in the system his teacher taught. This is especially true when it comes to two person drills and applications.