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Thread: tendons, not muscle...

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    Everybody talks muscle, but nobody wants to talk about TCMA use of elastic energy storage as a mechanism for temporal shift of energy transfer to generate higher peak power.
    I get it, as you might expect, but you can't expect the general audience to understand that aspect of our arts. Its close to plyometric training, which is nicely catalogued in western speak, so its a nice point of common ground to evolve the discussion from.

    Frost is a good reference because I believe he has a bit of 'faat ging' even if he has wasted it on his preference for Celtic skull bashing rituals....<grin>.

    Ronin too? A little SPM in the back catalogue?

    So, I'll contend that while the western take on plyometrics is load bearing, it doesn't take much to model it down to progressive small increment training...does it?
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    Everybody talks muscle, but nobody wants to talk about TCMA use of elastic energy storage as a mechanism for temporal shift of energy transfer to generate higher peak power.
    Well, to be honest, we do talk about it.
    Pretty much every sport that uses "explosive strength" does that and trains it.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yum Cha View Post
    I get it, as you might expect, but you can't expect the general audience to understand that aspect of our arts. Its close to plyometric training, which is nicely catalogued in western speak, so its a nice point of common ground to evolve the discussion from.

    Frost is a good reference because I believe he has a bit of 'faat ging' even if he has wasted it on his preference for Celtic skull bashing rituals....<grin>.

    Ronin too? A little SPM in the back catalogue?

    So, I'll contend that while the western take on plyometrics is load bearing, it doesn't take much to model it down to progressive small increment training...does it?
    The western take is the same as the eastern, just expressed (in words) differently and expressed in action in a sport specific manner.
    Simply because we tend to see it in sports more than anywhere else of course.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  4. #19
    The assertion that a specific strength base is necessary before one should perform plyometrics is a false one. And frankly it is quite a silly assertion, albeit a popular one now-a days!

    Historically, Ballet dancers, gymnasts, marital artists and other types of athletes all have performed plyometric actions as part of their everyday training without any strength training prior to their development of awesome jumping abilities.

    It would not be a bad idea to start easy and work up to more intense forms of plyometrics, but the idea one must squat or deadlift a specific amount before one attempts to perform plyometrics is just silly!

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    Th
    It would not be a bad idea to start easy and work up to more intense forms of plyometrics, but the idea one must squat or deadlift a specific amount before one attempts to perform plyometrics is just silly!
    one must squat or deadlift a specific amount before one attempts to perform plyometrics

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat™®LLC Practical Wombat Method. international academy retreat

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    one must squat or deadlift a specific amount before one attempts to perform plyometrics
    Tell that to a Ballet Dancer arguably the most able leapers there are!

    But go ahead and blindly follow the ignorant masses if you wish!

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    Tell that to a Ballet Dancer arguably the most able leapers there are!
    I have found a ballet dancer and told her, she said I am right.

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat™®LLC Practical Wombat Method. international academy retreat

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    I have found a ballet dancer and told her, she said I am right.
    Did you ask her how much she can squat?

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    Did you ask her how much she can squat?
    she can squat YO MAMA POOSY

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat™®LLC Practical Wombat Method. international academy retreat

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    The assertion that a specific strength base is necessary before one should perform plyometrics is a false one. And frankly it is quite a silly assertion, albeit a popular one now-a days!

    Historically, Ballet dancers, gymnasts, marital artists and other types of athletes all have performed plyometric actions as part of their everyday training without any strength training prior to their development of awesome jumping abilities.

    It would not be a bad idea to start easy and work up to more intense forms of plyometrics, but the idea one must squat or deadlift a specific amount before one attempts to perform plyometrics is just silly!
    Fair enough and a valid point.
    That said, ballet dancers tend to train from when they are very little and with "low" impact compared to what they do after, ie: progressive loading.
    So...
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    Did you ask her how much she can squat?
    Frost mentioned it earlier but for plyometrics (not just "leaping") to be safe and effective, a minimal standard of basic strength is required. Any professional dancer I've known does squats, and being able to squat 1.5x or 2x bodyweight really isn't an issue for them. In fact, getting 1.5x bodyweight is a pretty simple process. I'd be very surprised if somebody practices martial arts for more than a year and hasn't geared their training to hit this relatively modest goal.

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Fair enough and a valid point.
    That said, ballet dancers tend to train from when they are very little and with "low" impact compared to what they do after, ie: progressive loading.
    So...
    Yes, that is what I consider as well. There still must be some form of progression, also most of these coaches are training guys over 200#, so perhaps it makes more sense to have strong strength base. Dancers and gymnasts are well under 200# in general.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    Frost mentioned it earlier but for plyometrics (not just "leaping") to be safe and effective, a minimal standard of basic strength is required. Any professional dancer I've known does squats, and being able to squat 1.5x or 2x bodyweight really isn't an issue for them. In fact, getting 1.5x bodyweight is a pretty simple process. I'd be very surprised if somebody practices martial arts for more than a year and hasn't geared their training to hit this relatively modest goal.
    Not historically, weight training for athletes and dancers etc is still a modern phenomenon. It is unnecessary to have that kind of strength base in order to perform plymetrics.

    It just is not true or necessary, but as I said before, feel free to limit yourself accordingly.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    Yes, that is what I consider as well. There still must be some form of progression, also most of these coaches are training guys over 200#, so perhaps it makes more sense to have strong strength base. Dancers and gymnasts are well under 200# in general.
    Sports where plyo's tend to be PART of the sport ( or art form) tend to do them based on the individuals personal ability (progressive loading) and also age/experience ( ballet, gymnastics, etc).
    Basketball players are great leapers and most have been doing since they were kids and by the time that reach adulthood their muscles have been though years of "progressive loading" due to body weight increases and/or increase in frequency.

    Personally I think that when introducing plyo's to adults we have to be far more careful than when doing that to kids because, well, kids tend to be "plyo'ing" all over the place already, LOL.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  15. #30

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat™®LLC Practical Wombat Method. international academy retreat

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