One hand or two?

[Hendrik]

Wck always angle. Let the momentum decide the angle or door. One move away one center , never standing there to park the center.

If I were you, I don't think as you on tan da...etc those .

I just strike his center while he is attacked and let the outcome direct my slip in center capture. No predetermine.

The goal is capture his center, don't care if it is front door or side door.

What if your opponent's right punch followed by left punch all come in through your center? Of course you can take his side door. But if you want to take his front door, what will you do?

[YouKnowWho]

I just strike his center while he is attacked and let the outcome direct my slip in center capture. No predetermine.

But your opponent already come in through your "front door (space between 2 arms)". How can you get into his "front door" without open his "front door" first? By using double Tan is an excellent way to open his "front door". After you have entered your opponent's front door, you can do almost anything you want to.

Are we talking about the samething?

"To enter your opponent's front door" = "to get your opponent's center"?

[YouKnowWho]

The goal is capture his center, don't care if it is front door or side door.

Definition:

front door - space between both arms.
side door - space outside of both arms.

What do you mean "to capture your opponent's center through his side door"? Could you give an example?

The central-line is the line from the center of your body to your opponent. If you attack from your opponent's side door, since his center line will not point to your body, I just do know how can you capture his center from his side door.

[Hendrik]

1. Enter opponent front door and capture opponent center are two different things.

2. One can always shift the front door away. Front door is not fix.

3. Open his front door doesn't mean capture his center. In fact if you are weaker and open his front door there is 50 percent chance you lost because he can crush you by strengthen and speed.

4. It is after one capture the center and jamming the structure one can free to control. Open the front door not necessarily capture the center.

But your opponent already come in through your "front door (space between 2 arms)". How can you get into his "front door" without open his "front door" first? By using double Tan is an excellent way to open his "front door". After you have entered your opponent's front door, you can do almost anything you want to.

Are we talking about the samething?

"To enter your opponent's front door" = "to get your opponent's center"?

[YouKnowWho]

gets into chasing hands.

It's not his arms that you are interest. You are interest in his "front door". Since his arms are like double doors, in order to enter into that double doors, you have to

- knock on the door,
- open that door, and
- enter.

[Hendrik]

Front door here means inner gate. Side door means outer gate.

One can capture center via inner gate or outer gate.

Via outer gate is Such as right tan left da to his right punch.

Definition:

front door - space between both arms.
side door - space outside of both arms.

What do you mean "to capture your opponent's center through his side door"? Could you give an example?

The central-line is the line from the center of your body to your opponent. If you attack from your opponent's side door, since his center line will not point to your body, I just do know how can you capture his center from his side door.

[wingchunIan]

Ian i dont think you get what kevster is saying. He means you have to change elbow position i.e bong sau into punch (bong to taan), which lowers the elbow and helps connect to the stance in order to generate alot of power EVEN if its the same hand you block with. All this is found in laap sau drill which should be bread and butter. This is why wsl guys keep the elbow lower than other branches. This maintains cinnection to the stance and allows for ballstic power as well as solid structure.

Can safely say that having recently spent a day training with David Peterson and John smith their elbows were no lower.
As for turning bong into a strike by dropping the elbow that is common in bong lap but actually unnecessary if you can use the bong to open a line for the rear hand to strike, however both require an extra move than simultaneously intercepting with one hand whilst striking with the other. Of course this is only my opinion, I use all of the methods outlined depending upon the situation.

[JPinAZ]

It's not his arms that you are interest. You are interest in his "front door". Since his arms are like double doors, in order to enter into that double doors, you have to

- knock on the door,
- open that door, and
- enter.

Hey John, I'm not sure what that has to do with what I was talking about? Honestly, I'm not really interested in the whole door discussion you are having with Crazy Bob so not sure why you are bringing me into that or why that has anything to do with dodging/side-stepping punches as a first reaction (?)

Anyway, if you would like to continue our discussion, please don't cherry pick my words out of context, as this never accurately represents the original meaning.

[wingchunIan]

Regardless of the punch thrown, if one's first instinct is to 'dodge' or move away from a punch as you describe above, then in most cases I would say they aren't following baslic WC centerline principles. While it can work just fine, no centerline = no wing chun imo.

And I try not to get caught up in terms of tan da, biu da, etc as that can lead away from WC principle thinking and gets into chasing hands. IMO of course!

Interesting POV. From my perspective the centreline is not fixed in space it is relative to my location and that of my opponent. If I can change the location of the centre line such that I can control it / attack along it whilst my opponent cannot then I will do so every time and am adhering strictly to wing chun principles. Also interesting to see your view of tan da etc the easy I apply it is to fill the space in front of me and chase the centre of the opponent rather than arms.

[WC1277]

Definition:

front door - space between both arms.
side door - space outside of both arms.

What do you mean "to capture your opponent's center through his side door"? Could you give an example?

The central-line is the line from the center of your body to your opponent. If you attack from your opponent's side door, since his center line will not point to your body, I just do know how can you capture his center from his side door.

The center line is a direct line from "your" center to his vertical center, doesn't matter which way he's facing. If you "capture the center" you're essentially not allowing him to line up "his" center with your vertical line.

[JPinAZ]

Interesting POV. From my perspective the centreline is not fixed in space it is relative to my location and that of my opponent. If I can change the location of the centre line such that I can control it / attack along it whilst my opponent cannot then I will do so every time and am adhering strictly to wing chun principles.

I partially agree with this. I agree that centerline is not fixed as your opponent can move and is relative to both my location and my opponents. But in HFY, we have A-to-B point Centerline theories for engagement. To draw a line, you obviously need to points: me being 'A' and my opponent being 'B'. In order to have any way to reference time/space, one of these 2 points has to be stationary. If both me and my opponent are moving, attacking, etc, I can never really draw that line or have a point of reference to start from. So, no chance for real structure or reference with which to build proper leverage, facing, et.
Of course, this doesn't mean I 'never move' and my feet are planted to the floor either, but this is the basic idea that supports our bridging & engagement strategies and our Occupying Space with Fwd Energy concept.

Also interesting to see your view of tan da etc the easy I apply it is to fill the space in front of me and chase the centre of the opponent rather than arms.

I totally agree with what you are saying here! I was just trying to say that I tend not to get too caught up in the technique discussions as the main concepts of WC seem to get lost when they become the focus (technique focus vs. principle focus). It matters little what technique one uses if the concepts/principles of WC are behind them yeah?

[WC1277]

We use bong like a PAC sao. Wu sao has to be in the elbow of bong to strike as bong drops. Very fast actions.
We can use bong like a LAN but only if we want to push a little. Using bong to push is open to easy counter attacks so not a good idea as habit.
Our bong displaces arms laterally left or right not pushing forwards. Many use bong forwards to counter pressure fook , but this is arm chasing and will also happen in sparring.

"Question: The Stepping Bong Sau in Chum Kiu(Tor Ma Bong Sau, replied Dan M.)?

Ho Kam Ming: This motion uses a side position and goes sideways. But in application you go forward. The purpose for going sideways is to develop and maintain your center of gravity while moving. If you practice going forward in the beginning, you lose your balance; so you step sideways. Remember, in application, you go forward.

Question: Could you talk some more about Bong Sau? I’ve never heard that idea before.

Ho Kam Ming: When you’re attacked, it’s difficult to tell where the attack is coming from. The Bong Sau only protects your body. When the punch comes in, that’s the time to use it. Other then that, you can use Taan Sau or Pak Sau. Bong Sau is applied after touching; when you feel something, then you use Bong Sau. Bong Sau and the “elbow up” is used for close fighting–to save your position. You use Bong Sau after the hand is already in. Don’t use it if the attack is still outside.

Question: Then is Bong Sau considered an “emergency” block?

Ho Kam Ming: In a way, yes; when you’re in danger. Also, Bong Sau controls the force of others.

Question: Could you show how Bong Sau is used moving forward?

Ho Kam Ming: When your opponent attempts to change attacks, you can jam his motion. Use the body to step in; it’s not the hands so much as the body moving forward.

Question: Besides Bong Sau (Wing Block), are there other motions that are important?

Ho Kam Ming: All techniques are important; each can counter one another. But it’s vital to touch and then apply the techniques. This is why we have Sticky Hands; you touch and apply. This is called application after touching."

It makes me wonder if PB/WSL made some stuff up within the context of "sparring" with other WC guys. Your bongPAC appears to only really be useful against an attack with which the elbow is "down", which last time I checked, outside of TCMA, doesn't really happen with the common fighter...

[WC1277]

Link to the entire Ho Kam Ming article

http://chisao.com/archives/64

[PalmStriker]

But your opponent already come in through your "front door (space between 2 arms)". How can you get into his "front door" without open his "front door" first? By using double Tan is an excellent way to open his "front door". After you have entered your opponent's front door, you can do almost anything you want to.

Are we talking about the samething?

"To enter your opponent's front door" = "to get your opponent's center"?

Ha! John. I use the double tan sau for the same purpose. Practice (in high horse) double bong sau/ double tan sau. Repetitions with speed/deflecting force. Actually, Karate has a similar double like this with closed fists.

[YouKnowWho]

Ha! John. I use the double tan sau for the same purpose.

The 1st time I used jab and cross on my WC friend, he used double Tan Da on me, my feeling was he could guard his front door so tight that I couldn't enter. After that I tried to use hook punch to enter through his side door instead. I told myself that I want to be able to guard my front door that tight too. It opened my eyes and got me interested in the WC system that day.