One hand or two?

[k gledhill]

Yes, of course. But I am talking about the way it manifests. T_Ray is saying that in your lineage there is no 'sticky shape changing.'

I don't understand this, because:

1.“Loi Lau” refers to engaging the enemy, forming a bridge. Receiving what comes.

2."Hoi Sung” is about following the center. Following what goes.

3.“Lat Sau Jik Cheung” is about when the hands are released, attacking that center. When the way has become free.

So...

1. How are the hands released if you have no stick - released from what?
2. How do you follow what goes/stay with what goes if you have stick that is rigid because it hasn't compressed (that is to say, is stick that hasn't changed shape)?
3.How can released hands go forward to attack if they haven't compressed somewhat to have forward force. Like the rattan cane, or a spring, the shape can only shoot forward on its own accord if it has been compressed. This implies it's shape has changed.

Yip Man is using the analogy of a cane. Something that is flexible when pressed, but shoots back out when released.

Coincidence?

1- how are the hands released if there is no stick ?
We call this " striking " aka punching normally. ; )
2- Drills create intuitive " shadowing " not relying on arm pressure aka arm chasing. We attack the person.
3- Here is where your poon sao differs. We engage the whole anatomical kinetic chain as the counter force in our punches. Our leading arm in fighting is the attack and defense. Under sudden contact our training makes sure we don't lose angles , this is loading our arms but not changing their shape. If you retract from this loading moment youre getting a following hand with it.
Our " frame " in arms in chi sao is from the fixed elbow angles of tan bong fook/Jum. Iow there are constant angles of 135.3 deg. ; ) from chi sao / poon sao drills we create a constant exchange from tan >< Jum lin sil di sa attack/ defense force to neutral fook )( bong contact. Each arm is independently issuing force through structure , like patting the head while rubbing the stomach. It is common ( human ) for wrong coordination AND BOTH ARMS try to put forward pressure , leading to a chronic habit of seeking arm pressure under contact. That's another thread altogether.
The role of poon sao is to be aware of an imbalance in issuing synchronized drill force and correct it. This leads students to lose balance if the offending arms counter drill arm is removed a little to show the error. Lack of STRIKING position/counter force leads to unthinking striking into gaps, lsjc, while the shoulders and other arm maintain " pat the head mode ". Stances become independent of the opponent to issue force and maintain balance without reliance on support from opponents moving arms or seeking them for control. As the stability of strong stances and strong striking become evident , more drills involving stepping with the same poon sao start.
Always testing stability , facing , coordination of defense during attack.

[BPWT]

Thanks for the reply!

1- how are the hands released if there is no stick ?
We call this " striking " aka punching normally. ; )

I think I understand - and I agree that when there is no stick, you strike. But I was meaning that if you meet an attack, you need to have contact/stick (receive what comes) before you can follow or strike (depending).

So I was trying to say that once you've made contact your shape must change before anything else, even if that is just a slight compression of the shape.

I don't think I am explaining it very well

2- Drills create intuitive " shadowing " not relying on arm pressure aka arm chasing. We attack the person.

Why do you say "arm pressure aka arm chasing"? If I have forward force and there is stick, but that forward force is to the opponent's center, I don't think this is "arm chasing". If the opponent moves his arms/bridge off my line of attack, my arms don't follow his arms, they go forward to his center. I am happy his bridge moved out of the way, it gives me a free way forward to strike.

3- Here is where your poon sao differs.

For sure, our two lineages seem to have a different approach to poon sao.

The kinetic chain, I agree with - but I think this is common in pretty much all WC/VT and in most martial arts generally. It is the way force in generated via a serious of joints working in unison.

I am not sure how you can keep a constant angle of 135.3 deg. in shapes, and actually sometimes the shape needs to adjust. Perhaps this is just one of the different ways we do things.

Regarding "each arm is independently issuing force through structure , like patting the head while rubbing the stomach," I think this is also common across lineages, no?

In terms of "seeking arm pressure", again I am not seeking to pressure the arms of the opponent for the sake of pressuring their arms. Their arms are in the way of where I actually want to be - striking the other guy's center.

The role of poon sao is to be aware of an imbalance in issuing synchronized drill force and correct it. This leads students to lose balance if the offending arms counter drill arm is removed a little to show the error.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Could you explain it another way?

[k gledhill]

Thanks for the reply!



I think I understand - and I agree that when there is no stick, you strike. But I was meaning that if you meet an attack, you need to have contact/stick (receive what comes) before you can follow or strike (depending).

So I was trying to say that once you've made contact your shape must change before anything else, even if that is just a slight compression of the shape.

I don't think I am explaining it very well




Why do you say "arm pressure aka arm chasing"? If I have forward force and there is stick, but that forward force is to the opponent's center, I don't think this is "arm chasing". If the opponent moves his arms/bridge off my line of attack, my arms don't follow his arms, they go forward to his center. I am happy his bridge moved out of the way, it gives me a free way forward to strike.




For sure, our two lineages seem to have a different approach to poon sao.

The kinetic chain, I agree with - but I think this is common in pretty much all WC/VT and in most martial arts generally. It is the way force in generated via a serious of joints working in unison.

I am not sure how you can keep a constant angle of 135.3 deg. in shapes, and actually sometimes the shape needs to adjust. Perhaps this is just one of the different ways we do things.

Regarding "each arm is independently issuing force through structure , like patting the head while rubbing the stomach," I think this is also common across lineages, no?

In terms of "seeking arm pressure", again I am not seeking to pressure the arms of the opponent for the sake of pressuring their arms. Their arms are in the way of where I actually want to be - striking the other guy's center.



I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Could you explain it another way?

The poon sao is a way to develop force , facing , coordination of arms as each cycles through attack/strike using lsdd into neutral elbow ( fook ) - bong rotation.
If fok/jum punch apply pressure to bong after striking the bongs angle and deflecting will open the line up in fighting later. So the fok Jum exchange of the rotation has to stop pushing or pressing for force exchange, while the now opposite opposing , striking arms exchange lsjc / lsdd .
The whole time the heel -knee-hip-core-facing shoulders-acute elbows- exchange constant force in one arm or the other to create elbow force for punching. The balance of each person is paramount in fighting and using the strong lines of force. So if one student is " resting " their arms on the others or using incorrect lines of interception, arms and counter structural support is quickly removed to allow the student to lose balance and correct the errors. Losing balance in poon sao rolling is easy to do with newbees who ( as humans) use wrists and hands as a support chain to balance themselves or seek control by using us , we don't allow this ; ).


This is why one can never learn vt without someone who is skilled in this way. Anyone can mimic chi sao and rely on human force exchanges at the distal portion of their arms because its " only human " ; ) iow why so many feel they are doing it their way until they get get turned, twisted, lose balance and see they have been pursuing a completely redundant ( human ; )) method, some for many years.

[Wayfaring]

Anyone can mimic chi sao and rely on human force exchanges at the distal portion of their arms because its " only human " ; ) iow why so many feel they are doing it their way until they get get turned, twisted, lose balance and see they have been pursuing a completely redundant ( human ; )) method, some for many years.

This is why I advocate getting turned, twisted, and losing balance from day 1. i.e. sparring. Because then people learn it's normal to happen that way.

[k gledhill]

This is why I advocate getting turned, twisted, and losing balance from day 1. i.e. sparring. Because then people learn it's normal to happen that way.

Day one no , or week one ... A certain level of pre drilling to " triggers " and moving relative to them is required or its just an error fest of turning. Over turning is a big mistake in vt , ergo angle instead while facing.

[Wayfaring]

Day one no , or week one ... A certain level of pre drilling to " triggers " and moving relative to them is required or its just an error fest of turning. Over turning is a big mistake in vt , ergo angle instead while facing.

Of course it's an error fest. Which is why I'd rather have someone over turning on day 1 as opposed to first experiencing it on day 1501.

Keep them from killing each other and let them play.

[k gledhill]

Of course it's an error fest. Which is why I'd rather have someone over turning on day 1 as opposed to first experiencing it on day 1501.

Keep them from killing each other and let them play.

But you DONT have to teach students to make this error, they make it as humans. Vt stops shoulders and upperbody rotating offline to the attack/defense. The purpose of facing and attacking with refacing is so you can cut into or use two arm recycling in lsdd mode against people who TURN THEMSELVES. basic chi-sao teaches two arms to be able to work independently of the other and NOT retract one side of facing as the other strikes or recovers. The redundant factor of "FIGHTING " with vt is that we use a lead (man sao ) and a rear hand (wu sao) for fighting ....not drill mode two hands in parallel facing each other for mutual time.