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Thread: Wing chun works too much against elbow down?

  1. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    No they don't. Yet I have seen far too many wck people sat down on their butt by a proper overhand right because they don't think that punch has structure or something.
    Personally I would disagree. Punching with elbow out or up as in an overhand punch doesn't have structure but that doesn't mean it doesn't do a lot of damage. Wing chun punches rely on structure and short explosive straight line movement. Boxing techniques utilise rotation, body weight and generally bigger movements. Arm and shoulder muscle development is a must in boxing type striking due to the stresses on the limb imparted by the mechanics. In case anyone thinks I'm knocking boxing I'm certainly not, for the most part boxing punches are far more powerful than wing chun punches.
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  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by wingchunIan View Post
    Personally I would disagree. Punching with elbow out or up as in an overhand punch doesn't have structure but that doesn't mean it doesn't do a lot of damage.
    The body lean provides structure for the overhand punch. Leaning forward and to the opposite side of the punching hand provides structure for a brief range of motion that includes the impact point.

    It gains a lot of rotational force before that point.

    Saying it doesn't have structure is like saying a golfer doesn't have structure at impact point on the golf ball. Pros have a very distinct structure at that point.

    I'm saying this because it's a common WCK myth. Dispelling it will help people's performance.

  3. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    Subjectivity will be in facing various people outside the system. But vt is a specific set of tactics , angles , striking skills. You could say there are variations based on the LACK of knowing that vt has movement and angling along with kicking. WSL was quoted as saying exactly this, people INVENT ideas because they don't know otherwise.
    If WSL said that he was wrong. Sounds very un Wong like to me anyway.

    You have a very definite idea of how you think things should work. Other people in wing chun have other ideas. Some of them can beat you senseless. Does that mean their idea is better? I am sure you will say no. So according to you the guys beating you senseless do so because of their lack of knowledge. What does that say about your knowledge?

    Skill is not based on knowledge but on performance ability. If the other guy can use his wing chun techniques better than you he wins even if you think he is doing it wrong. The bottom line is if someone can make their wing chun techniques work for them and perhaps at a higher performance level than you, how can you say they are wrong?

  4. #49
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    There are differing views in regards to the elbow down/vertical fist origin BUT in practical terms it seems that the way WC is designed to be used - inclose, both hands working simultaneously, "trapping and hitting", etc, that the elbow down is just the best way to strike under THOSE circumstances.
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  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    The bottom line is if someone can make their wing chun techniques work for them and perhaps at a higher performance level than you, how can you say they are wrong?
    It is possible to be wrong about wing chun and still be good at fighting. Wing chun is a particular principle based fighting method that is good for some things and not so good for some other things.. If you don't fight according to the principles of wing chun and using the body method of wing chun then you aren't doing wing chun, no matter what hand shapes you produce. Most good fighters don't know anything about wing chun. Some good fighters do know a lot about wing chun.

  6. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    There are differing views in regards to the elbow down/vertical fist origin BUT in practical terms it seems that the way WC is designed to be used - inclose, both hands working simultaneously, "trapping and hitting", etc, that the elbow down is just the best way to strike under THOSE circumstances.
    I think you get the cigar.

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    It is possible to be wrong about wing chun and still be good at fighting. Wing chun is a particular principle based fighting method that is good for some things and not so good for some other things.. If you don't fight according to the principles of wing chun and using the body method of wing chun then you aren't doing wing chun, no matter what hand shapes you produce. Most good fighters don't know anything about wing chun. Some good fighters do know a lot about wing chun.
    Yes yes yes you can be a goof fighter without wing chun but that what I am talking about. I am talking about the wing chun guy who uses wing chun techniques is trained in wing chun and beats you with that wing chun even though you have a different idea of how to use wing chun.

    Your view is it is only wing chun if how you do things agrees with how I think they should be done. That view ignores reality.

  8. #53
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    It is possible to be wrong about wing chun and still be good at fighting.
    Judging by some conversations here, it is apparently also possible to be "right"about Wing Chun and still be unable to fight.
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  9. #54
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    Somehow I get the picture people think that a punch with the elbow rotated doesn't have structure to it. Nothing could be further from the truth. With your body standing upright in a straight vertical position perhaps this is true.
    Some of the greatest jabs in history are as you describe here. Particularly some of the heavyweights

    However, look at a boxing punch. When someone is throwing a right hand, there is a left and forward body lean.
    Lean? No
    Body is still upright, its the legs that bend, transfer weight to front leg with hip/shoulder rotation. Its not a lean.

    That lean is what provides the structure. You can notice this standing. See the difference yourself between a straight up structure with elbow rotated out, and the leaning structure. Now lean left and forward, like the position you see when the punch is thrown live by a boxer. A whole lot more structure, huh?
    I think youre saying weight over front foot more so than lean??
    Is that correct?

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    Yes yes yes
    Do you have a stutter?

    Your view is it is only wing chun if how you do things agrees with how I think they should be done. That view ignores reality.
    Nothing to do with how I think things should be done. Principles of wing chun are pretty clear

  11. #56

    Wing Chun works too much against elbow down ?

    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    Wing chun utilises elbow down for reasons we all understand. Elbow down is vulnerable to certain strategies which wing chun works a lot, as well as some that wing chun doesn't work. Wing chun also works things that are not dependent on elbow down.

    The problem is that virtually nobody punches elbow down in real life. How much of what is developed in wing chun is based on the assumption that the elbow will be down? How much is transferable to reality? Discuss.
    guy b , are you studying wing chun now ? The reason why I ask is because wing chun is what it is , if there a certain strategy that you said wing chun does ' nt work . Then you need to look into the 3 - forms to deal with techniques where wing chun really does ' nt work . Because , to me everybody is saying something bad about wing chun or critiscizing the art itself , I can understand that , but did they look into the 3 - forms of wing chun , to look for techniques where wing chun really does ' nt work ? Did you go up to any wing chun practioner and ask them the same question ? What type of wing chun are you talking about ?

    The reason why I ask you all these questions , is because I just wanted to know where you ' re comming from . But if you still think wing chun is ' nt practical for you at all , move on to another art .

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    There are differing views in regards to the elbow down/vertical fist origin BUT in practical terms it seems that the way WC is designed to be used - inclose, both hands working simultaneously, "trapping and hitting", etc, that the elbow down is just the best way to strike under THOSE circumstances.
    Yes. As you said, we have to remember the context it's being used in. Power generation when standing up is best with an elbow down. If I have enough room to lunge, I'm throwing elbow up. Head and hips.
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  13. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by lance View Post
    guy b , are you studying wing chun now ? The reason why I ask is because wing chun is what it is , if there a certain strategy that you said wing chun does ' nt work . Then you need to look into the 3 - forms to deal with techniques where wing chun really does ' nt work . Because , to me everybody is saying something bad about wing chun or critiscizing the art itself , I can understand that , but did they look into the 3 - forms of wing chun , to look for techniques where wing chun really does ' nt work ? Did you go up to any wing chun practioner and ask them the same question ? What type of wing chun are you talking about ?

    The reason why I ask you all these questions , is because I just wanted to know where you ' re comming from . But if you still think wing chun is ' nt practical for you at all , move on to another art .
    I'm not criticising wing chun at all, I love wing chun. Wing chun can cope very well with punching not done elbow down but a lot of people only work against elbow down punches. That is all I am saying really.

  14. #59

    Wing Chun works too much against elbow down ?

    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    I'm not criticising wing chun at all, I love wing chun. Wing chun can cope very well with punching not done elbow down but a lot of people only work against elbow down punches. That is all I am saying really.
    guy b , the elbows are down because , wing chun punches begin from the center line and protrude into the opponent depending on where your target is ? And there ' re time when some one may want to throw a punch to your lower area where your ribs are . The right elbow when in a downward position like the vertical fist punch , can be used to block the downward punch comming to your right rib area , and from there you can use a downward cross pak sao to block that left low punch comming to your right rib cage area . While your right hand can go into a right vertical fist punch to your desired target on your opponent .
    That ' s why the elbows are always down , even WC has that backfist punch can be generated with the elbows down too , used directly against the opponents right or left jaw area .

    You said you know WC kung fu right ? Don ' t you feel that certain power when you practice the vertical fist punch , like the way I described in my reply to your post ? Because when the elbows are down and along with proper body mechanics you learn in WC and footwork and stance all in 1 move is how we WC people generate power as we move into the opponent . In WC we do have techniques like uppercuts , palm strikes , vertical fist punch , backfist strikes , finger jab strikes all done with elbows down movements . To me that ' s why the elbows down are emphasize more in WC .

  15. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by lance View Post
    guy b , the elbows are down because , wing chun punches begin from the center line and protrude into the opponent depending on where your target is ? And there ' re time when some one may want to throw a punch to your lower area where your ribs are . The right elbow when in a downward position like the vertical fist punch , can be used to block the downward punch comming to your right rib area , and from there you can use a downward cross pak sao to block that left low punch comming to your right rib cage area . While your right hand can go into a right vertical fist punch to your desired target on your opponent .
    That ' s why the elbows are always down , even WC has that backfist punch can be generated with the elbows down too , used directly against the opponents right or left jaw area .

    You said you know WC kung fu right ? Don ' t you feel that certain power when you practice the vertical fist punch , like the way I described in my reply to your post ? Because when the elbows are down and along with proper body mechanics you learn in WC and footwork and stance all in 1 move is how we WC people generate power as we move into the opponent . In WC we do have techniques like uppercuts , palm strikes , vertical fist punch , backfist strikes , finger jab strikes all done with elbows down movements . To me that ' s why the elbows down are emphasize more in WC .
    Lance I think we are talking at cross purposes.

    I am not criticising elbows down, it is essential for wing chun. All I am saying is that sparring elbows down vs elbows down all the time is not realistic for what you are likely to meet in a real fight. It is good to train sometimes vs boxing type punches.

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