Wing chun works too much against elbow down?

[Paddington]

Interesting thread guy_b, I have been thinking about this a lot too of late.

It seems to me that the question and critical responses pretty much depend upon where you train and the particular regime of training the sifu(s) there insist upon. Consequently, to my mind what you propose is not a question for wing chun as a system but perhaps more a question to be put to certain winch chun schools and their lead sifus

For my part where I have previously trained, there was little by way of practice against 'non- wing chun' attacks and movements. Even when training has included defending against elbow up/out type strikes, often many involved in the training exercise do not know how to throw such strikes. In this context, then, I would answer yes; there is an assumption and over training of defence against elbow down strikes at that school.

This is not a universal trend (thank god) and even little old me has booked one-to-one time with fighters at the local mma gym for a 6mth project. Indeed, the questions you ask, guy_b, are some that I will be exploring for myself over the next 6 months. I guess this is a characteristic of a more 'modern' approach to training that stands in contrast to the more 'traditional' ways?

Again it becomes less and less a question to be asked of the wing chun system and more to do with different ways to train. Even this traditional/modern distinction is a little problematic. Still, there is a huge difference between the local martial arts club utilizing the local primary school's hall and, say, what you would find at Gleason's Gym.

Personally I think a better distinction would center on the extent to which one is training for real life violent encounters, where your circumstances mean you are more likely than others to encounter violence (police, security, pro-fighter, bad neighborhood etc.); on one side you have those who have a need to be able to fight and on the other those who are very unlikely to encounter violence and train wing chun as a hobby, with social aspects, as a part of a way to improve health and do a bit of self development.

Anyway, perhaps in a few months time I'll have a better and more thought out answer on these questions.

[Paul T England]

Wing chun's main compeitior in Foshan was Choy Li Fut. Famous for its swinging punches, some of which don't keep the elbow down.

For linear punches elbow down is the best structure. You can strike with elbow out but not full body power and keep strucutre for recover.

Even Karate reverse punches should keep elbow down. More importantly elbow down means its easier to keep shoulder down.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[tc101]

Wing chun's main compeitior in Foshan was Choy Li Fut. Famous for its swinging punches, some of which don't keep the elbow down.

For linear punches elbow down is the best structure. You can strike with elbow out but not full body power and keep strucutre for recover.

Even Karate reverse punches should keep elbow down. More importantly elbow down means its easier to keep shoulder down.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

If you are trying to dominate the centerline then keeping our elbow down and in keeps our arms aligned on the centerline. If our elbow goes up and outward like in boxing punches then while our fist can still hit a target on the centerline everything except our fist is off the centerline.

[tc101]

You have a very shallow knowledge of elbow ideas.

No no no he has a different way of looking at his wing chun. Just because his ideas are different than yours does not make it shallow or wrong or inferior. I do not think wing chun is built honestly on deep ideas anyway but quite simple ideas it is only us that try to make things more complex and deep than they really are.

[chaotic2k]

Interesting thread guy_b, I have been thinking about this a lot too of late.

It seems to me that the question and critical responses pretty much depend upon where you train and the particular regime of training the sifu(s) there insist upon. Consequently, to my mind what you propose is not a question for wing chun as a system but perhaps more a question to be put to certain winch chun schools and their lead sifus

For my part where I have previously trained, there was little by way of practice against 'non- wing chun' attacks and movements. Even when training has included defending against elbow up/out type strikes, often many involved in the training exercise do not know how to throw such strikes. In this context, then, I would answer yes; there is an assumption and over training of defence against elbow down strikes at that school.

This is not a universal trend (thank god) and even little old me has booked one-to-one time with fighters at the local mma gym for a 6mth project. Indeed, the questions you ask, guy_b, are some that I will be exploring for myself over the next 6 months. I guess this is a characteristic of a more 'modern' approach to training that stands in contrast to the more 'traditional' ways?

Again it becomes less and less a question to be asked of the wing chun system and more to do with different ways to train. Even this traditional/modern distinction is a little problematic. Still, there is a huge difference between the local martial arts club utilizing the local primary school's hall and, say, what you would find at Gleason's Gym.

Personally I think a better distinction would center on the extent to which one is training for real life violent encounters, where your circumstances mean you are more likely than others to encounter violence (police, security, pro-fighter, bad neighborhood etc.); on one side you have those who have a need to be able to fight and on the other those who are very unlikely to encounter violence and train wing chun as a hobby, with social aspects, as a part of a way to improve health and do a bit of self development.

Anyway, perhaps in a few months time I'll have a better and more thought out answer on these questions.

I would not be suprised if you take up grappling after your venture. Good for you Paddy. Gotta give it a go.

[k gledhill]

No no no he has a different way of looking at his wing chun. Just because his ideas are different than yours does not make it shallow or wrong or inferior. I do not think wing chun is built honestly on deep ideas anyway but quite simple ideas it is only us that try to make things more complex and deep than they really are.

No no no the elbow ideas are abstract and easily become subjectively interpreted into all kinds ideas. ; ) vt is a skill not art.

[tc101]

No no no the elbow ideas are abstract and easily become subjectively interpreted into all kinds ideas. ; ) vt is a skill not art.

Yes wing chun is a skill I agree with that 100% and that is why ideas of how we think things should be done are not what is important. A skill is in the performance not the idea. You perform a skill. You have an idea of what works for you but this does not mean there is not other ways that work and some may work better for others than how you do things. As I point out but it does not seem to sink in there are people with different ideas who can beat us with our ideas and this shows it is not the idea that wins the fight but who is better at performing their idea that wins the fight.

Boxing is a skill too and there are many different ways to put things together in boxing. The my idea is right and everyone else is wrong view is silly.

[k gledhill]

Yes wing chun is a skill I agree with that 100% and that is why ideas of how we think things should be done are not what is important. A skill is in the performance not the idea. You perform a skill. You have an idea of what works for you but this does not mean there is not other ways that work and some may work better for others than how you do things. As I point out but it does not seem to sink in there are people with different ideas who can beat us with our ideas and this shows it is not the idea that wins the fight but who is better at performing their idea that wins the fight.

Boxing is a skill too and there are many different ways to put things together in boxing. The my idea is right and everyone else is wrong view is silly.

You're now proving that the SKILL of the executor will show or not. VT is a skill not a subjective smorgasbord . How you use it with fighting different sizes , weights , skill v skill of other methods allows the variety but the SKILLS OF VT are what give us an edge.

[tc101]

You're now proving that the SKILL of the executor will show or not. VT is a skill not a subjective smorgasbord . How you use it with fighting different sizes , weights . Skill v skill of other methods allows the variety but the SKILLS OF VT are what give us am edge.

Skill is the quality of your performance but how individuals perform can be very very subjective.

[T.D.O]

If you noticed, when transitioning from wu sao to tan sau there's a spiraling motion involved. That motion is involved in every WC transition if you treat your elbow this way and is the basis of the "cutting edge" concept which is a whole nother topic in and of it self. This unified spiraling motion between the elbow and the hand is naturally the most efficient way to dissipate force. Combine it with the "bracing" footwork concept and you have the strongest example of structure available to dissipate force. This structure isn't unique to WC by the way and is found throughout nature and industry.

I once read an article by chu shong tin taking about finding the spherical shapes of wc techniques, I've always thought it was this movement (motion) he meant. Any chance of starting this topic? please

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Elbow in is natural to some, i've trained with new students that have already had their elbows in, funnily i think they were all girls....???


Elbows in and down i've always used for carrying, arms out " here bud pile that on there " and for pushing cars and things....

but back to the point

I prefer when people punch (at me) with elbows up, i can get behind the elbow with jum or punch and i know the shoulder is not connected to the rest of the structure

[k gledhill]

Skill is the quality of your performance but how individuals perform can be very very subjective.

Subjectivity will be in facing various people outside the system. But vt is a specific set of tactics , angles , striking skills. You could say there are variations based on the LACK of knowing that vt has movement and angling along with kicking. WSL was quoted as saying exactly this, people INVENT ideas because they don't know otherwise.

[Wayfaring]

For linear punches elbow down is the best structure. You can strike with elbow out but not full body power and keep strucutre for recover.

Somehow I get the picture people think that a punch with the elbow rotated doesn't have structure to it. Nothing could be further from the truth. With your body standing upright in a straight vertical position perhaps this is true.

However, look at a boxing punch. When someone is throwing a right hand, there is a left and forward body lean. That lean is what provides the structure. You can notice this standing. See the difference yourself between a straight up structure with elbow rotated out, and the leaning structure. Now lean left and forward, like the position you see when the punch is thrown live by a boxer. A whole lot more structure, huh?

[k gledhill]

Elbows out , up , rotated into punches as boxing, don't utilize Lin sil di da arm angles to strike and defend simultaneously.

[Wayfaring]

Elbows out , up , rotated into punches as boxing, don't utilize Lin sil di da arm angles to strike and defend simultaneously.

No they don't. Yet I have seen far too many wck people sat down on their butt by a proper overhand right because they don't think that punch has structure or something.

[Paddington]

I would not be suprised if you take up grappling after your venture. Good for you Paddy. Gotta give it a go.

I've done grappling before and enjoyed it. Indeed, jui jitsu was the first martial art I took up and then judo for a little while there after. I fully expect to do some grappling and it is one of the reasons I am going there. Sorry to cross post but Kev's vid in this thread http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...ad.php?t=66303 illustrates some of what I would like to develop.