Wing chun works too much against elbow down?

[guy b.]

Wing chun utilises elbow down for reasons we all understand. Elbow down is vulnerable to certain strategies which wing chun works a lot, as well as some that wing chun doesn't work. Wing chun also works things that are not dependent on elbow down.

The problem is that virtually nobody punches elbow down in real life. How much of what is developed in wing chun is based on the assumption that the elbow will be down? How much is transferable to reality? Discuss.

[Hendrik]

IMHO,

1. Elbow down in Wck has become a dogma without meaning and stagnation .

2. Elbow down is a dynamic transient action for force flow channeling and or power generation. It generate a different type of force flow. It is useful in the real life but one needs to know how to use it properly.

3. Elbow down transient is the moment when one hammer the nail in. But one never hold hammer down continuous static forever.

Wing chun utilises elbow down for reasons we all understand. Elbow down is vulnerable to certain strategies which wing chun works a lot, as well as some that wing chun doesn't work. Wing chun also works things that are not dependent on elbow down.

The problem is that virtually nobody punches elbow down in real life. How much of what is developed in wing chun is based on the assumption that the elbow will be down? How much is transferable to reality? Discuss.

[YouKnowWho]

WC emphasizes "elbow down". But WC is also the only TCMA system that uses Bong Shou with "elbow up".

[Vajramusti]

WC emphasizes "elbow down". But WC is also the only TCMA system that uses Bong Shou with "elbow up".

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Down/up/ Frame of reference is important.

Upon contact bong sao rolls (subtle) downwards.

[chaotic2k]

Wing chun utilises elbow down for reasons we all understand. Elbow down is vulnerable to certain strategies which wing chun works a lot, as well as some that wing chun doesn't work. Wing chun also works things that are not dependent on elbow down.

The problem is that virtually nobody punches elbow down in real life. How much of what is developed in wing chun is based on the assumption that the elbow will be down? How much is transferable to reality? Discuss.

I think the problem alot of guys have is they fight at boxing range. Good wing chun is clinch or kissing range. Rules change depending where i am. Elbows are our weapons as well as are reference points. We stab our elbows into our opponents centre of mass to feel what kinda fish i got on my line. Elbows down are crucial for recovery and unity in the stance. We finish a fight very quickly if the opponents elbows are up. This is why somone who can wrestle gives a wing chun guy problems. My golden rule is to remember we are rubbish at boxing range. Boxers are better punchers. Elbows up to cover at boxing range. Down when i get the line. Peace

[WC1277]

Wing chun utilises elbow down for reasons we all understand. Elbow down is vulnerable to certain strategies which wing chun works a lot, as well as some that wing chun doesn't work. Wing chun also works things that are not dependent on elbow down.

The problem is that virtually nobody punches elbow down in real life. How much of what is developed in wing chun is based on the assumption that the elbow will be down? How much is transferable to reality? Discuss.

We don't force our elbow in, like it appears VT and some others do, and a lot of it depends on the body profile of the individual as well. We practice it in a natural position where muscle tension is neutralized.

A good way to test natural position is to have your arm at your side, and with avoiding raising your shoulder and twisting the body, reach out to a full extend and grab or touch something on your center line. Now keeping the same pathway retreat your hand to the wu sao position. This is the "outside elbow line" position. Now from this position rotate to tan sau. You will notice that your elbow rotates inward. This is the "inside elbow line". If you do it this way you will notice that in Sil Lum Tao the fok sau is on what is the "middle/neutral elbow line". This is the line that we place our forward hand in the WC guard position on.

What this "natural" positioning does is allow you to, not only have a wider "shield" so to speak, but these elbow lines are really the bread and butter of good WC. If you noticed, when transitioning from wu sao to tan sau there's a spiraling motion involved. That motion is involved in every WC transition if you treat your elbow this way and is the basis of the "cutting edge" concept which is a whole nother topic in and of it self. This unified spiraling motion between the elbow and the hand is naturally the most efficient way to dissipate force. Combine it with the "bracing" footwork concept and you have the strongest example of structure available to dissipate force. This structure isn't unique to WC by the way and is found throughout nature and industry.

Anyway, by developing that type of structure, it becomes very easy for one to translate it even when the elbow may rise in a conflict against a non WC person.

[chaotic2k]

We don't force our elbow in, like it appears VT and some others do, and a lot of it depends on the body profile of the individual as well. We practice it in a natural position where muscle tension is neutralized.

A good way to test natural position is to have your arm at your side, and with avoiding raising your shoulder and twisting the body, reach out to a full extend and grab or touch something on your center line. Now keeping the same pathway retreat your hand to the wu sao position. This is the "outside elbow line" position. Now from this position rotate to tan sau. You will notice that your elbow rotates inward. This is the "inside elbow line". If you do it this way you will notice that in Sil Lum Tao the fok sau is on what is the "middle/neutral elbow line". This is the line that we place our forward hand in the WC guard position on.

What this "natural" positioning does is allow you to, not only have a wider "shield" so to speak, but these elbow lines are really the bread and butter of good WC. If you noticed, when transitioning from wu sao to tan sau there's a spiraling motion involved. That motion is involved in every WC transition if you treat your elbow this way and is the basis of the "cutting edge" concept which is a whole nother topic in and of it self. This unified spiraling motion between the elbow and the hand is naturally the most efficient way to dissipate force. Combine it with the "bracing" footwork concept and you have the strongest example of structure available to dissipate force. This structure isn't unique to WC by the way and is found throughout nature and industry.

Anyway, by developing that type of structure, it becomes very easy for one to translate it even when the elbow may rise in a conflict against a non WC person.

Very articulate and nice post. Impressed by you. Should start callng you the wing chun doctor

[WC1277]

Very articulate and nice post. Impressed by you. Should start callng you the wing chun doctor

Thanks chaotic2k, but I'm just resting on the backs of Giants

[Vajramusti]

Thanks chaotic2k, but I'm just resting on the backs of Giants

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True-but good post

[anerlich]

This structure isn't unique to WC by the way and is found throughout nature and industry.

True. Boxers are taught to keep their elbows in to protect against body shots. Wrestlers and BJJ guys are taught the same to avoid their arms being grabbed, under/overhooked, extended, and isolated. Leverage is better with arms close to the body as well.

[k gledhill]

We don't force our elbow in, like it appears VT and some others do, and a lot of it depends on the body profile of the individual as well. We practice it in a natural position where muscle tension is neutralized.

A good way to test natural position is to have your arm at your side, and with avoiding raising your shoulder and twisting the body, reach out to a full extend and grab or touch something on your center line. Now keeping the same pathway retreat your hand to the wu sao position. This is the "outside elbow line" position. Now from this position rotate to tan sau. You will notice that your elbow rotates inward. This is the "inside elbow line". If you do it this way you will notice that in Sil Lum Tao the fok sau is on what is the "middle/neutral elbow line". This is the line that we place our forward hand in the WC guard position on.

What this "natural" positioning does is allow you to, not only have a wider "shield" so to speak, but these elbow lines are really the bread and butter of good WC. If you noticed, when transitioning from wu sao to tan sau there's a spiraling motion involved. That motion is involved in every WC transition if you treat your elbow this way and is the basis of the "cutting edge" concept which is a whole nother topic in and of it self. This unified spiraling motion between the elbow and the hand is naturally the most efficient way to dissipate force. Combine it with the "bracing" footwork concept and you have the strongest example of structure available to dissipate force. This structure isn't unique to WC by the way and is found throughout nature and industry.

Anyway, by developing that type of structure, it becomes very easy for one to translate it even when the elbow may rise in a conflict against a non WC person.

You have a very shallow knowledge of elbow ideas.

[WC1277]

You have a very shallow knowledge of elbow ideas.

You wouldn't understand. You're too busy forgetting you have two arms.

[k gledhill]

You wouldn't understand. You're too busy forgetting you have two arms.

You're forgetting it isn't a skill to use two arms against one. : )

[WC1277]

You're forgetting it isn't a skill to use two arms against one. : )

You're forgetting this is about fighting!

[tc101]

You have a very shallow knowledge of elbow ideas.

No no no he has a different way of looking at his wing chun. Just because his ideas are different than yours does not make it shallow or wrong or inferior. I do not think wing chun is built honestly on deep ideas anyway but quite simple ideas it is only us that try to make things more complex and deep than they really are.