have at it..video clip

[YouKnowWho]

I don't see a trap.

IMO, it should be an "arm guiding - to use your right hand to guide your opponent's left punching arm into your left hand" instead. In order to do that, your catching hand has to be on the opposite side of your guiding hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRR6mP-sMno

The more reasonable assumption is if you make a move, your oppponent will also makes a move. If you make 4 moves, your opponent will also make 4 moves. To assume that you make 4 moves and your opponent only makes 1 move is not realistic.

The praying mantis system likes to use this kind of combo but the assumption is, you have to attach an effective "hook" on your opponent. This way, when he retreats, he will pull your body with him. Without that "hook', your opponent's body is already gone when you try to apply your step 2 move.

[pazman]

Other than pulling a keylock off a jab (which isn't going to happen), I don't have so much problem with the technique itself.

I do have a problem with the way this video (and nearly every other kung fu video) displays the technique, though. Typically when I teach a technique, I will teach the footwork and body positioning first. You and your partner start from what looks like an arbitrary distance and I don't get a sense of you teaching any footwork or body positioning. If you just stick to punching, the sense of distance required is pretty intuitive (close enough to hit the other guy in the face). For any standing qinna, it is less so, and its really important to impart that to the student.

For the strike itself, it would be great to show it as a mitt drill. That way, we could get a sense of how it is played with some footwork.

[YouKnowWho]

When your opponent punches at you, his arm is trying to be straight. If you want to use joint locking on him by taking advantage on his straight arn, you should help his arm to be straight even more and lock on his elbow joint. It's not technique efficiency if you ignore that straight arm, and trying to bend his wrist from a string position into a bending positiion.

Here is an example. Instead of using 4 moves, you can just using 1 move to against 1 move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oU5m...ature=youtu.be

[Yum Cha]

Its always easy to take a training demonstration and take it apart with a lot of 'ifs' or to move into your own ideas with an 'or'

Check-bridge-strike. I totally get the use of slap/check before the heavy bridge. The vid shows it as a defence, it works just as well in attack, checking the lead hand to prevent the defensive jab as you move in to bridge... Say, the second some knob throws up his classic Gwailo Kuen left lead. The very second, because he crossed the line.....

The check hits the jab as it is coming out, before extension, knocking it off axis/or target, and rotating the body momentum counter to the direction leaded for a good right counter.
Your bridge reaches full extension as or before the jab does, trapping and turning the opponent.
The strike hits on the half beat, before the opponent reacts to the bridge, much less brings the right around.
you can use a light 'attention getter' to the face (to raise his guard) and follow up with something big, or go for gold on the strike.

Ten moves fast, demonstrates his style in a manner other students can learn the exercise. The beginning stuff, for beginners..... He can demonstrate the dynamic at speed, which a student needs to see to understand as they lumber through the learning of the mechanics.

Its a valid technique, sure, not full power, but its just a training vid.

I don't know about you guys, but my biggest challenge these days is learning how to teach, how to preserve the traditional techniques by keeping them effective and self justifying. Lots of stages to put a student through...

[Yum Cha]

When your opponent punches at you, his arm is trying to be straight. If you want to use joint locking on him by taking advantage on his straight arn, you should help his arm to be straight even more and lock on his elbow joint. It's not technique efficiency if you ignore that straight arm, and trying to bend his wrist from a string position into a bending positiion.

Here is an example. Instead of using 4 moves, you can just using 1 move to against 1 move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oU5m...ature=youtu.be

John, we use the same set up, but bring an elbow strike up into his elbow for the break instead of the throw, or a palm to the shoulder to drive the face into the ground. The footwork is almost exact.

[YouKnowWho]

my biggest challenge these days is learning how to teach, how to preserve the traditional techniques by keeping them effective and self justifying. Lots of stages to put a student through...

I don't think about trying to preserve the traditional techniques. I think about the most efficency moves at that particular moment. Whether it may come from TCMA or from none TCMA, it won't make any difference to me. So what's the most effective counters to deal with a "punch to the face"?

I like the following solutions:

1. kick back at my opponent's belley. Since my leg is always longer than his arm, my defense kick can also be an offense kick.
2. If I don't have time to kick, I'll jump back to gain distance, jump back in, and attack. This way I can take over the offense.
3. If I don't have time or space to jump back, I'll just throw a leading arm 45 degree downward "haymaker" to cover the space infront of me. Whether my "haymaker" mak knock on down his arm, or knock on his head, it won't matter. What metter is what I'm going to do after that "haymaker", the offense.

I try not to think about defense but offense only. This way the fight is much simplier. Of course I can use my back hand to "comb my hair". But since my back hand is too close to my face, I have to take more risk by doing so.

[Golden Arms]

Its always easy to take a training demonstration and take it apart with a lot of 'ifs' or to move into your own ideas with an 'or'

Check-bridge-strike. I totally get the use of slap/check before the heavy bridge. The vid shows it as a defence, it works just as well in attack, checking the lead hand to prevent the defensive jab as you move in to bridge... Say, the second some knob throws up his classic Gwailo Kuen left lead. The very second, because he crossed the line.....

The check hits the jab as it is coming out, before extension, knocking it off axis/or target, and rotating the body momentum counter to the direction leaded for a good right counter.
Your bridge reaches full extension as or before the jab does, trapping and turning the opponent.
The strike hits on the half beat, before the opponent reacts to the bridge, much less brings the right around.
you can use a light 'attention getter' to the face (to raise his guard) and follow up with something big, or go for gold on the strike.

Ten moves fast, demonstrates his style in a manner other students can learn the exercise. The beginning stuff, for beginners..... He can demonstrate the dynamic at speed, which a student needs to see to understand as they lumber through the learning of the mechanics.

Its a valid technique, sure, not full power, but its just a training vid.

I don't know about you guys, but my biggest challenge these days is learning how to teach, how to preserve the traditional techniques by keeping them effective and self justifying. Lots of stages to put a student through...

I also agree that it is pretty much impossible to make any sort of training clip released to the general public that is not going to bring up a ton of what if/but, type responses (unless you are a pro fighter and then in that case most people will just agree because they don't have the credentials to disagree). A great thing about fighting is that what works for you may not for me and vice versa.

[YouKnowWho]

It's always true that 1 move is faster than 2 moves, and 2 moves is faster than 3 moves. The OP's clip just starts this discussion. It's always fun to discuss "general solution to deal with a face punch". Our discussion should be beyond that clip and not be restricted by it.

Since this thread belongs to "Kung Fu forum", people won't say, "This move is against my style principle." We can look at this clip from all different angles.

[TenTigers]

Yummy-you're way ahead of me-I was also going to show the same move as an offensive attack.
David-when I say,"Trap," I don't neccesarily mean a complete trap, tying up his hands into a knot.
A check, a temporary immobilization is a trap. All I need is a split second to get my strike in. Just a window of opportunity. If I get the first strike in, I can get the second. If I can get the second in, I will get the third.

[TenTigers]

Yummy-you're way ahead of me-I was also going to show the same move as an offensive attack.
David-when I say,"Trap," I don't neccesarily mean a complete trap, tying up his hands into a knot.
A check, a temporary immobilization is a trap. All I need is a split second to get my strike in. Just a window of opportunity. If I get the first strike in, I can get the second. If I can get the second in, I will get the third.

[Kellen Bassette]

I have a police officer friend that has pulled off a middle parry + biu sau across the face into a guat sau to get outside the elbow + attack towards centerline or one of the legs, move into wrist lock into handcuffs combination many times, it has become a go to method for him in escalating scenarios.

I actually believe this is the original intent of many standing Chi Na techniques. I think they were designed for military/police to apprehend and arrest. i think Chi Na is largely taken out of context today.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Bik Ma. Follow and stick and press your attack, constant forward pressure..
But you already knew that.
And not ALL jabs are probing strikes. Jack Dempsey's "jab" is his stiff jolt, or Bruce Lee's (plagerized) straight blast. Or Charp Choy, Jik Kuen, Biu Sao..
But..follow it in. Trap at the elbow/upper arm, shoulder. The hand moves 4 feet, but the elbow only moves 1/2 foot.
Doesn't need to be a backfist. Could be a jik kuen, fung-ngan choy, pek choy,etc
Different types of force. Snap the head, but don't drive through, but as I said, Bik Ma.
Doesn't have to be on the outside. Can also be played on the inside. The second hand covers his strike-but..it's touchy. My Si-Hings and Sifu pull that one off better than I do. More practice.
I've played this against experienced boxers, one of them an instructor at the local boxing gym. He does Gung-Fu now.
Nice points SJ.
I like intelligent fighters.
You should see some of the responses that were removed from the vid.
There seem to be a bunch of CMAists who recently discovered training, and think that they are the only ones who've ever put on a pair of gloves.

Oh I know that YOU account for the reaction of the opponent BUT I also know that, watching that clip, it would be one of the first ":issues" any fighter would have seeing it.
I also know that you know that too.

See, this is the tricky thing about demoing ANY technique:
For it to be properly demo'd it tends to have to be done in an "improper" way - too slow, to wide, opponent just kind of stays there, etc..

This is what I think the Dog Brothers do what they do better than anyone else and we can all learn from that:
In their demo/instructional's that show it taught AND show it FOUGHT.

It is, IMO, the correct way of doing this.

I just don't think that it is always possible or practical at times and I understand that, YET it should be what we aim for.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't know about you guys, but my biggest challenge these days is learning how to teach, how to preserve the traditional techniques by keeping them effective and self justifying. Lots of stages to put a student through...

This is a really good issue here, thread worthy actually.

[MightyB]

I don't know about you guys, but my biggest challenge these days is learning how to teach, how to preserve the traditional techniques by keeping them effective and self justifying. Lots of stages to put a student through...

Lately I just try to reiterate that we all move differently, so not everything will work for everybody. There are things I can't and will probably never be able to pull off in real time, but I can still show that others can and do use. Such is life.

Everybody Poops.

[LaRoux]

This is what I think the Dog Brothers do what they do better than anyone else and we can all learn from that:
In their demo/instructional's that show it taught AND show it FOUGHT.

It is, IMO, the correct way of doing this.

I just don't think that it is always possible or practical at times and I understand that, YET it should be what we aim for.

Yes, and the techniques shown in the original video are impractical. That's why you will not see any evidence of either that backfist or that arm lock/takedown being used effectively in full contact situations.