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Thread: have at it..video clip

  1. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    1.04 looks more like a rising hammer fist to me than a downward backfist (i personally don’t like the downwards backfist as it feels weak to me and ive never seen it as that effective) for me the hammer fist allows more hip and waist into the strike, and notice how the guy moves backwards when hit, making any type of standing lock hard to pull off?
    I never cared for a downward backfist myself, (shoulder/elbow down, fist traveling straight down.) I call that a "vertical backfist. "

    I always liked what I call a "horizontal backfist." Shoulder turned over, elbow up, fist travels outwards and at a slight angle up. (Like what you called a "rising hammer fist.") Essentially the only difference would be the hammer would connect with the bottom of the fist, backfist would connect with the back of the knuckles, adding a snap of the wrist as well. Very similar techniques.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  2. #47
    Interesting focus mitt drill for developing the back fist:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4ne4nT2EAY

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    At 1.15 i see a straight forward committed 1 2 strike down the centre through an open guard where the defenders left hand comes across to deal with the opponents left hand and leaves a channel for the right hand to come straight down (one of the reason i like to block out to in and not on the inside of a shot.
    I tihink what happened was his bridge missed, but was enough to bring the guard down anyway. And yea, not a back first, but a strike. But the principle is the same, even if it is messy. Good technique and training come through when it gets messy.

    And how would you train a novice to learn how to do that?

    Maybe a little vid like Ten's?

    Hey Frost, Ashton Agar kicks a$$, never seen him train with gloves.....
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
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  4. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Yum Cha View Post
    Hows this? Not really full contact, but, well, friendly training.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqoV_ivujLM

    1:04, Backfist
    1:15 (similar take to the vid that started this)
    1:30, just wait for it...
    Perfect. Thank you.

    See how easy it is to show something working in a less than compliant situation.

    Now, how about the Americana lock takedown?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaRoux View Post
    Perfect. Thank you.

    See how easy it is to show something working in a less than compliant situation.

    Now, how about the Americana lock takedown?
    Yea, in all honesty, I've played with it, but never felt like it was a high percentage move, and its something complicated, where if you get in that situation, there's something simpler. Not my thing....

    And thanks for the nod on the video.
    I know its controlled, but its exactly that, trying to play your stuff against a non-compliant opponent who will hit back.
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
    Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yum Cha View Post
    Yea, in all honesty, I've played with it, but never felt like it was a high percentage move, and its something complicated, where if you get in that situation, there's something simpler. Not my thing.....
    When your opponent resists against you, it's always better to use combo and use the 1st move as fake to set up the 2nd move. If you try to straight your opponent's arm by "shoulder lock",

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY3s0Ctqhwk

    when he resists, he will try to bend his arm, you can then borrow his arm bending force, and help his arm to bend even more and apply the "elbow lock".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1q-kqsBvbI

    Here is how to use shoulder lock as fake to set up elbow lock.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iAxSeWEHnI

    Old Chinese saying said, "A bad strike is still better than a good lock." There is some truth in it.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-17-2013 at 03:04 PM.
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  7. #52
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    I've seen a standing ude-garami (aka ude-gaeshi, aka americana) pulled off twice by the same person in Shodokan Aikido competitions. I think it is a very specialized technique and definitely not a bread and butter technique. I would be very surprised if it were ever used in an mma format. I just can't see it coming off of a jab.

  8. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post

    Here is how to use shoulder lock as fake to set up elbow lock.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iAxSeWEHnI

    Old Chinese saying said, "A bad strike is still better than a good lock." There is some truth in it.
    More smoke and mirrors.

    If the guy in the white shirt was halfway resisting and/or had any clue about grappling, he would have easily countered that and ended up in a superior postion.
    Last edited by LaRoux; 07-17-2013 at 04:22 PM.

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    I've seen a standing ude-garami (aka ude-gaeshi, aka americana) pulled off twice by the same person in Shodokan Aikido competitions. I think it is a very specialized technique and definitely not a bread and butter technique. I would be very surprised if it were ever used in an mma format. I just can't see it coming off of a jab.
    Two main problems with the Americana arm lock takedown:

    1- Since you have no control of your opponent's body, it's a simple move for him to simply circle away and towards the opposite side of the arm, thus preventing the takedown. If he is bigger/stronger than you are, he will get his arm straight when this happens and he will be in a good position for a standing head/arm choke. Even better is to use the free arm to push his close side shoulder way, which will give him an angle to take the back.

    2- Anyone with some basic ground submission knowledge should see that the person doing the takedown has just opened himself up for an arm bar as soon as the person being taken down hits the ground.
    Last edited by LaRoux; 07-17-2013 at 04:30 PM.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Here is how to use shoulder lock as fake to set up elbow lock.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iAxSeWEHnI

    Old Chinese saying said, "A bad strike is still better than a good lock." There is some truth in it.
    Why is he so gappy instead of stepping his right leg through behind you, using a hip strike, and torquing across your face with his right elbow on the americana?

  11. #56

    Yeah, but...

    I agree with the problems of using the "figure four" against a good jab or against a guy with superior grappling skills, especially in an MMA setting since the foundation for lots of those professional level fighters is MT and BJJ. However, against a guy on the street who is grabbing you or not skilled in proper punching I can see the lock being effective.

    I just came from a boxing session and I understand that attempting to apply such a lock on one of my training partners would result in eating a cross. But there is a time and place for it otherwise it wouldn't be in the curricula of so many high quality instructors. My goal isn't ring competition but rather reality-based fighting, although of course the two aren't mutually exclusive with a lot of stuff. Therefore, from the lens of street-fighting I contend that the original posted video is an excellent example of traditional martial arts being effectively used.
    Last edited by Vernon; 07-17-2013 at 06:53 PM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    Why is he so gappy instead of stepping his right leg through behind you, using a hip strike, and torquing across your face with his right elbow on the americana?
    It was a drill for "set up - how to borrow your opponent's resistence". It was not a drill for "finish". This way both you and your opponent can drill more reps and not get tired too quickly.

    For example, when you pull, your opponent resists, you can borrow his resistence and change your pull to push and get his leading leg. You can

    1. take him down by your single leg everytime.
    2. stop after you have obtained his leg.

    You may repeat the 1st method 20 times. The same energy that you have spent on method 1, you may repeat the 2nd method 40 times. It's like in Judo that you can drill a throw over and over without throwing your opponent but just putting your opponent's body on your back.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-17-2013 at 07:08 PM.
    http://johnswang.com

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  13. #58
    Greetings,

    Vernon stated:

    "Therefore, from the lens of street-fighting I contend that the original posted video is an excellent example of traditional martial arts being effectively used."

    This is untrue. Additionally, one should not assume naivete on the part of street civilians. That alone can get you killed. If you can get clocked in the gym (and I am not talking about sport), you can get clocked on the street. I also saw that right cross. I also saw something a lot worse; a devastating left tiger tail kick to the floating ribs or liver area. What was shown was not a response series that could work in real time. It is a series that could get you hurt and a lot worse. I am talking in the ground to the sound of bagpipes.

    mickey
    Last edited by mickey; 07-17-2013 at 08:41 PM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    It was a drill for "set up - how to borrow your opponent's resistence". It was not a drill for "finish". This way both you and your opponent can drill more reps and not get tired too quickly.
    What if he continues with the entering footwork, leg trap, and kao da, but stop short of the elbow impact and takedown?

    That way you get extra conditioning, and a good set up, and you both can continue alternating in the drill.

    If he steps back out from the takedown, you can reverse the arm bar, he resists, then you step in for the takedown.

    Both people can train impact, entry, and distance correctly.

  15. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by mickey View Post
    Greetings,

    Vernon stated:

    "Therefore, from the lens of street-fighting I contend that the original posted video is an excellent example of traditional martial arts being effectively used."

    This is untrue. Additionally, one should not assume naivete on the part of street civilians. That alone can get you killed. If you can get clocked in the gym (and I am not talking about sport), you can get clocked on the street. I also saw that right cross. I also saw something a lot worse; a devastating left tiger tail kick to the floating ribs or liver area. What was shown was not a response series that could work in real time. It is a series that could get you hurt and a lot worse. I am talking in the ground to the sound of bagpipes.

    mickey
    Actually, I wasn't stating that one should assume street thugs to be unskilled. Simply that opportunities of effectively applying Americana/figure-four locks in an MMA type setting against well-versed grapplers may not statistically present themselves as often as on the street. I have seen video footage of figure-four locks in ground grappling situations during ring events. I do not recall seeing them used against strikes such as jabs in the ring. I have, however, spoken to guys who claim to have used the arm lock in real life confrontations. I did not witness this firsthand, nor do I have video footage of these encounters; but I do believe the individual accounts. I do believe that there are ample opportunities to use such locks and takedowns on the street and will therefore continue to include them in my repertoire of techniques. Nothing naive about that, IMHO.

    We could play the "what if" game forever with just about any posted video. "What if" the guy took out a knife while his arm was being locked, etc., etc., ad nauseam. After all, sometimes real fighting isn't checkers but rather chess.

    I think the OP's video was a very useful demonstration of what can work on the street and to a lesser extent in the ring. Other's mileage will vary.
    Last edited by Vernon; 07-17-2013 at 09:31 PM.

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