In response to T.D.O.

[tc101]

Sure, i learnt how to walk without being taught the principles, i even learnt to run, then ran in low level competition...... but as soon as i got to a hogher competitive level i was shown HOW and WHY to change my running technique.

See what you are doing, you are saying just by doing something you will get better, but its proven time and time again that showing how and why will improve performance

Yes that is true but how is it that you know the how and why is correct? It comes back to performance right?

Perhaps I am not explaining myself well but here the focus is on ideas and not performance. The question I think is does that idea help you perform better or not? The idea is not useful in itself but only as far as it helps you. People seem to ignore the performance and exist only in the world of ideas.

YOU SIMPLY CANNOT ARGUE WITH THAT.

I am not arguing with that but I am saying that most of these ideas are armchair ideas and not ideas that come from experience actually doing it.

THATS WHAT EVERYONE IS SAYING!!!!!!

I think many are saying the ideas or what they call principles or concepts are what is most important and I am saying no it is performance that is most important. You have an idea and I have a different one. We can argue about who has the better idea. I am saying this type of argument or even thinking in terms of who has the right or better idea is silly. What matters is how well you can perform. There are people here who think they have the right idea but will be pounded senseless by guys with the so called wrong idea. This shows it isn't the idea that is important.

Some even go so far as to say that even if I am using all wing chun techniques but not using them according to their idea of how thing are supposed to be used then I am not doing wing chun regardless of how well I perform. So what is most important to these people ideas or performance?

Nonsense, the principle is what made the skill applicable, you cant just take it away

You can develop skill without reference to any principles or concepts. Wing chun people are fed a constant diet of principle this and concept that so much that they can't see beyond it. They are also fed a constant diet of our idea is right and best and everyone elses idea is bad poor or not even wing chun. Wing chun is no more principle based than boxing or wrestling or mt or judo or anything else they only tell themselves they are and look at things from that perspective.

AND because they understand the how and whys!

Yes they know the how's and whys from experience. They are not good because they know these things they know them because they are good. From practicing they develop skill and from that practice they learn the how's and whys.

[wingchunIan]

You can develop skill without reference to any principles or concepts. Wing chun people are fed a constant diet of principle this and concept that so much that they can't see beyond it. They are also fed a constant diet of our idea is right and best and everyone elses idea is bad poor or not even wing chun. Wing chun is no more principle based than boxing or wrestling or mt or judo or anything else they only tell themselves they are and look at things from that perspective.



Yes they know the how's and whys from experience. They are not good because they know these things they know them because they are good. From practicing they develop skill and from that practice they learn the how's and whys.

How to put this... you are just quite simply wrong. Re your first point above, failure to understand principles driving success means there will always be a glass ceiling beyond which you can't progress and your learning will be governed by the rate at which you can be spoon fed.
Re your second point (i'm ignoring the nonsense about what is right and what is best as that only applies to a limited few), people do not learn the how's and whys from experience. Anyone whose actually been in a fight will tell you that it is very difficult to recall exactly what happened when after the event a truth that I can testify to as I'm sure can others. Knowing that you managed to hit someone hard does not give you any information as to how to make your punch harder in future and unless you understand the mechanics and principles of the power generation of your chosen punching method (be that WC, boxing or any other) your best effort at improvement will be trial and error. Understanding principles and concepts allows you to get the maximum benefit out of every training session and every drill, in turn helping you to become the best fighter that you can be

[guy b.]

I can't fathom why anyone would want to waste the time learning everything from experience. This is why fighting methods exist, so that you don't waste time learning the lessons of generations by yourself. There aren't enough years in a life