In response to T.D.O.

[Vajramusti]

I'm not sure I agree with everything that Kevin says here, but I do agree with the idea that Wc1277 has illustrated a basic difference in Wing Chun "thinking" or "strategy." There is one way of thinking that uses a lot pivoting and rotational force to deflect and strike. You definitely see this in the Ho Kam Ming lineage. In contrast is another way of thinking that uses more "Bik Ma" footwork to drive in like a wedge and doesn't use as much pivoting or rotational force. Its more of a translational force...driving in. You definitely see this in Wong Shun Leung lineage. This is not to say that the first way of thinking does not "drive in" with translational force, or that the second way of thinking does not use pivoting and rotational force. Its more of a matter of emphasis or preference.

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I am not sure where we are- verbal descriptions are tricky. Bik ma is very important in HKM lineages. When the wing chun body is properly developed-deflection and bik ma are synthesized,

Also it is possible to do a bong and a punch together. Depends on who, what, when, where.

[WC1277]

No, youre just wrong.
TST guys hit with a lot of power without turning, Barry Lee (WSL senior) hits with astonishing power and a couple of the guys i did PM with also hit like mules.

We're still talking about simultaneous attack and defend here, right?

[GlennR]

We're still talking about simultaneous attack and defend here, right?

Well i thought the conversation had drifted to power, but sure, it all works together after all

[WC1277]

Well i thought the conversation had drifted to power, but sure, it all works together after all

No, not really, at least in relation to the opposing forces. Try that wall bag test out...

[GlennR]

No, not really, at least in relation to the opposing forces. Try that wall bag test out...

Wall bag to test power?

[WC1277]

GlennR: Wall bag to test power?

I've never argued the point that you can't hit someone without rotation. You can. But if you're even remotely in an upright WC position, you're most likely using arm power and not your body to do it. People do it all the time in their chi sao experimentation, but it doesn't translate to actual force in hitting. Throw in on top of that the idea of simultaneous attack and defend and you're losing even more force generation if you're relying on arm power without rotation, let alone not actually redirecting the incoming force. Next time you're in front of your wall bag place a sturdy object next to you and press/pull on it in multiple directions without rotating while hitting with the other arm simultaneously. Then do it with rotation. You notice how there's obvious exchanges of force while not rotating that feel weak? Notice how with rotating you ALWAYS exert more force? Notice how with rotating you ALWAYS facilitate the pushing/pulling hand to a passive roll?

I think sometimes people think that because they can get a hit in, in chi sao or even sparring, that it means they could knock the guy out or cause significant damage. But we all know that isn't true. One should be training their punch to maximize potential, not impress fellow classmates.

What I tried to explain in my "mad analogy" is that it's the rotation that facilitates the seeking of the target. If you push off center on one side, the other side comes forward, and vice versa. There is a realistic approach and bio mechanical structure involved that allows this. Some have alluded to this structure not being able to maintain facing but if you really think about it and you understand the balance of forces, this structure seeks to maintain facing.

And I'll say it again. No one wants to recognize that there's not a single "developmental" attack in ANY of the open hand forms and dummy that don't retain this balance.

[GlennR]

GlennR: Wall bag to test power?

Here's an experiment for you.

Stand in front of any of the non-turners i mentioned and let them hit you in the chest, youll find yourself in a world of hurt

[WC1277]

Here's an experiment for you.

Stand in front of any of the non-turners i mentioned and let them hit you in the chest, youll find yourself in a world of hurt

Dense as usual Glenn

[GlennR]

Dense as usual Glenn

Charming as usual.

So what i should do is tell Barry Lee, TST, Pak Mei people etc etc that they are doing it all wrong because you think otherwise?

I wasn't trying to be a smart ass, but i was highlighting that what you may think is correct is not necessarily the only, or best way.

The REAL proof in the pudding is;

- is the strike powerful
- Does it compromise your defense
- do i retain balance
- can i follow up easily with following strikes.

Im all for theory, but if many people can do something contrary to my thinking, rather than going "thats theoretically wrong" ill go "can you show me how you do that?"

FWIW, ive trained in TST and a mainland style that advocates a lot of turning so ive been exposed to both ways of thinking..... here's a tip, there's pro's and cons to both ways.

[WC1277]

Im all for theory, but if many people can do something contrary to my thinking, rather than going "thats theoretically wrong" ill go "can you show me how you do that?"

Hmm... strange contradiction there. You should try to follow your own advice.

I don't recall where I said someone was "theoretically wrong" in this thread. I pointed out inconsistencies and gave my "opinion" on logical fallacies such as Hendrik's ineptitude with words and Kevin saying they don't rotate. BTW Ving Tsun rotates.

We may have different names for the same things but you don't seem to grasp what the subject matter was even about. It's fine that all you care about is the things you listed or "The REAL proof is in the pudding". But, within the context of the subject matter, I happened to care about what is happening when you redirect force and deliver force at the same time and how that can be bio mechanically maximized within the WC structure. If you want to chalk it up to the "if it works" way of thinking then by all means but you're really no different from Hendrik then. A man struggling to define something that he can't teach.

[GlennR]

Hmm... strange contradiction there. You should try to follow your own advice.

I don't recall where I said someone was "theoretically wrong" in this thread. I pointed out inconsistencies and gave my "opinion" on logical fallacies such as Hendrik's ineptitude with words and Kevin saying they don't rotate. BTW Ving Tsun rotates.

We may have different names for the same things but you don't seem to grasp what the subject matter was even about. It's fine that all you care about is the things you listed or "The REAL proof is in the pudding". But, within the context of the subject matter, I happened to care about what is happening when you redirect force and deliver force at the same time and how that can be bio mechanically maximized within the WC structure. If you want to chalk it up to the "if it works" way of thinking then by all means but you're really no different from Hendrik then. A man struggling to define something that he can't teach.

Im not here to "educate" anybody.
Just here for a chat and on the odd occasion a laugh.

You basically said you cant hit with power without turning, i suggested otherwise and gave examples of real people that could deliver a powerful punch.

Thats basically my contribution, evidence to the contrary of your statement.

If you want to know how its done go by a book

[Hendrik]

Ask those who has visited me before you post is a better idea young man.



I happened to care about what is happening when you redirect force and deliver force at the same time ...



Simple stuffs can be done at contact point without big movement.
But one needs to get to the force flow level.
It is dynamic handling of the seven bows not about holding structure.


Btw, I describe. Not define . No need to go logic ....etc just describe what it is.

Hmm... strange contradiction there. You should try to follow your own advice.

I don't recall where I said someone was "theoretically wrong" in this thread. I pointed out inconsistencies and gave my "opinion" on logical fallacies such as Hendrik's ineptitude with words and Kevin saying they don't rotate. BTW Ving Tsun rotates.

We may have different names for the same things but you don't seem to grasp what the subject matter was even about. It's fine that all you care about is the things you listed or "The REAL proof is in the pudding". But, within the context of the subject matter, I happened to care about what is happening when you redirect force and deliver force at the same time and how that can be bio mechanically maximized within the WC structure. If you want to chalk it up to the "if it works" way of thinking then by all means but you're really no different from Hendrik then. A man struggling to define something that he can't teach.

[anerlich]

"Wellington is in New Zealand. Therefore, Wellington is in New Zealand."

Why pick on Wellington? It's cold and windy in winter, but not that bad a place.

[KPM]

Im not here to "educate" anybody.
Just here for a chat and on the odd occasion a laugh.

You basically said you cant hit with power without turning, i suggested otherwise and gave examples of real people that could deliver a powerful punch.

Thats basically my contribution, evidence to the contrary of your statement.

If you want to know how its done go by a book

That's how I saw it as well. The fact is, one CAN hit with power without rotation. WC12xx, you asked for any example of a martial art that does so. We gave you several. But you seemed to think we didn't know what we were talking about. Don't ask for examples if you are then going to disregard the examples given.

As far as attack and defense at the same time without rotation....think of it as a "wedge" rather than a "beach ball." If you drive the wedge in with translational force, things are going to be deflected to the sides. The hand forms like Tan Sao or Pak Sao are there to aid in that deflective force, not to produce it. Its like the "cattle catcher" on the front of an old-fashion steam locomotive. Anything on the tracks in front of the train is going to get deflect off to the side as the train speeds forward.

Like I said before, two different strategies or ways of thinking. One is not necessarily better than the other. Just different.

[KPM]

There's absolutely no rotation of their upper body? Are these "upright" attacks?

I'm studying Jook Lum Mantis now. Right from the beginning I was taught a stance that is less upright than WCK, but not a low horse like Hung Ga. The body is "square on" to the opponent with the shoulders rounded forward and the mid-back slightly "hunched.". Power is generated with the step, not rotation. The steps are very "ballistic" in the beginning, not a smooth glide like WCK. The punch lands as the rear foot snaps forward almost as a "stomp." As one gets better, the power generated by the stance is transmitted up the spine and out the arm somewhat like a "wave" of force. Its like "snapping a towel" rather than "swinging a towel." And yes, it IS powerful without rotational force.