Is Taiji a striking art?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

you said that dry hump scissor move is special unique trait in tai chi. the move doesn't exist, its made up, its worthless. that means your knowledge of tai chi is worthless.

I never said it is unique to Taiji. I said Taiji specialists in the type of takedown. You see examples of it strewn all through out Taiji forms. It's also in all the really old, pre moslem military Long Fist (Hong Quan/Flood fist found in the central Yellow River Valley area). Wensengquan does lots, and lots of it too.

[bawang]

I never said it is unique to Taiji. I said Taiji specialists in the type of takedown. You see examples of it strewn all through out Taiji forms. It's also in all the really old, pre moslem military Long Fist (Hong Quan/Flood fist found in the central Yellow River Valley area). Wensengquan does lots, and lots of it too.

you are talking about single whip, which is the basic beginner punch in all longfist styles. you basically don't know the application of a lunge punch.

[Shaolindynasty]

The name and the poem are irrelevantto the usage of the physical movement.

Actually the name and poem oftentimes tell the application and explain how to execute the physical action of the movement correctly. Though they may not be necessary to know to become functional, knowing them can help make the original intent of a technique clear

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Actually the name and poem oftentimes tell the application and explain how to execute the physical action of the movement correctly. Though they may not be necessary to know to become functional, knowing them can help make the original intent of a technique clear

Sure, thats fine and all. But i don't need to know the name "Phoenix Spreads it's wings" to know how to take someone down with it.

[Shaolindynasty]

Thats what I said but the names are useful in determining the original intent behind the move. Knowing them can help eliminate "imaginative " application

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Thats what I said but the names are useful in determining the original intent behind the move. Knowing them can help eliminate "imaginative " application

Good point. Although being in an environment where you learn applications and fighting skill first, and the forms last also accomplishes this.

[YouKnowWho]

the tai chi scissor uproot...

I think you are talking about either

1. Diagonal fly - Your shoulder is under your opponent's leading arm, or
2. Wide horse ruffles mane - Your shoulder is above your opponent's leading arm.

In order to make "shoulder strike" work, you will need to follow 2 major principles.

1. Forward momentum - In order to generate the forward momentum, you have to step in your back leg and then step in your front leg again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7qVSX4M_Sw

2. Leg control - In order to prevent your opponent from getting away, you have to use your front leg to hook your opponent's back leg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQHiy...ature=youtu.be

Because both principle are missing in Taiji training, the Taiji "scissor uprooting" doesn't work very well. Taiji guys don't like to use momentum. They don't like to commit. Taiji guys also don't like to use leg techniques. They don't like to stand on one leg. This is why Taiji can never be an effective throwing arts system.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This is sort of similar to the scissor leg concept I am trying to describe. Only here the energy is going forward and pushing them away. However, the lower body is still on one side, and the upper is on the other side.

If the defender is stationary, and the opponent is moving in, then you would sink down using a rather heavy elbow. The opponent will lose his balance and fall at your feet.

What you showed is more how the Tai Tzu Long Fist arts would do it. They often just plow through the line.

Similar concept though.

I think you are talking about either

1. Diagonal fly - Your shoulder is under your opponent's leading arm, or
2. Wide horse ruffles mane - Your shoulder is above your opponent's leading arm.

In order to make "shoulder strike" work, you will need to follow 2 major principles.

1. Forward momentum - In order to generate the forward momentum, you have to step in your back leg and then step in your front leg again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7qVSX4M_Sw

2. Leg control - In order to prevent your opponent from getting away, you have to use your front leg to hook your opponent's back leg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQHiy...ature=youtu.be

Because both principle are missing in Taiji training, the Taiji "scissor uprooting" doesn't work very well. Taiji guys don't like to use momentum. They don't like to commit. Taiji guys also don't like to use leg techniques. They don't like to stand on one leg. This is why Taiji can never be an effective throwing arts system.

[PalmStriker]

Chen Master: Demonstration of Striking Power http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AflXrXZYNCk

[Subitai]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNAV_AurtKI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zeqVJKg55g

some of the problems with modern taiji

It's late in the thread but it took me a while to find some time to read through a little.

I just wanted to say thanks Dave for putting up those links. Reaffirms what i've been suspecting. I really enjoyed those.

It totally makes sense now...a few months back, I went to another local meeting of Taiji guys to get together and Push or what ever.

One guy in particular I found disturbing because he kept saying to a student of mine...he'd be "D-Q'd for doing this OR that"

When I pushed with him my response was, "well this isn't competition, it's do whatever in a guys back yard"

[YouKnowWho]

In Dave's clips, none of them had tried "foot sweep". This is why "Taiji has no legs". Taiji guys just don't know how to use their legs.

[xinyidizi]

In Dave's clips, none of them had tried "foot sweep". This is why "Taiji has no legs". Taiji guys just don't know how to use their legs.

So what is 风扫梅花 for?

http://www.56.com/u13/v_NTEyNjAzNzQ.html

[YouKnowWho]

So what is 风扫梅花 for?

http://www.56.com/u13/v_NTEyNjAzNzQ.html

The "foot sweep" (next clip) is not in any Yang Taiji form. It must come from "cross training". You just don't see people use this in push hand.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDkyMTIzMDE2.html

The Yang Taiji "cloud hand" is the best place to add "foot sweep" into it (next clip). For some unknown reason, the original Yang Taiji form creator didn't do that.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDkyMTI1MzMy.html

In the following clip at 0.18, 0.44, 0.59,

http://v.ku6.com/show/_nRFWjUMFF9bpHmm.html

if he used right leg to

- "切(Qie) - cut" his opponent's right leg, or
- "弹(Tan) - spring" his opponent's left leg,

the throw will be effortless and also hard for his opponent to escape. Both "切(Qie) - cut" and "弹(Tan) - spring" are very important "leg skill". His left hand pulling and right hand pushing were perfect, but he didn't use any of his leg skills.

The leg skill "切(Qie) - cut" can be seen in the following clip.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzUwNTQ1OTM2.html

The leg skill "弹(Tan) - spring" can be seen in the following clip.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDkyMTI1Mjg4.html

[xinyidizi]

The "foot sweep" (next clip) is not in any Yang Taiji form. It must come from "cross training". You just don't see people use this in push hand.

I don't know about Yang taiji. In Chen style laojia erlu, xiaojia erlu and xinjia erlu there is foot sweep and other leg skills that you have mentioned exist in erlu and yilu. These are nothing new in Chen taiji and if you visit their schools everyone is using them. In fact in another forum another taiji stylist criticized Chen stylists for using the leg skills that you have mentioned.

I think there are hundreds of videos of Chen stylists using leg skills for example this one is Chenyu's student Zhou Jige:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQ1NzM5NzY4.html

[YouKnowWho]

I don't know about Yang taiji. In Chen style laojia erlu, xiaojia erlu and xinjia erlu there is foot sweep and other leg skills that you have mentioned exist in erlu and yilu. These are nothing new in Chen taiji and if you visit their schools everyone is using them. In fact in another forum another taiji stylist criticized Chen stylists for using the leg skills that you have mentioned.

I think there are hundreds of videos of Chen stylists using leg skills for example this one is Chenyu's student Zhou Jige:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQ1NzM5NzY4.html

I don't know Chen Taiji but a good friend of mine does. From his Chen Taiji form, I just cannot find that "foot sweep" in it. IMO, if it's not in the form, it may come from "cross training" (nothing wrong with that).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFXlJiwUATQ

The "foot sweep" in the form is easy to recognize.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrrwYt5CntY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiDTA...ature=youtu.be