Shoule be:
It's very hard (if not impossible) to neutralize when your opponent
- punches at your face, or
- grabs you with both hands.
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Shoule be:
It's very hard (if not impossible) to neutralize when your opponent
- punches at your face, or
- grabs you with both hands.
http://johnswang.com
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No opinion -> no argument
羅王宗
That seems hard to believe, it would be against important principles, I think maybe you have that the wrong way round. I can see that in XinYi definately, but not in Taiji.Originally Posted by xinyidizi
Certainly in China not many people who would advocate that principle have ever used it, China historically is a litigious place, and has strict laws for fighting. If you throw first you will certainly be in trouble and China is a competitive place, a previous conviction is not a stain you can escape from.
Taiji is famous for following the principle 'Jie li da ren' (borrow power to strike) more so than other styles, this is not easy when you are first. Secondly Taiji still ascribes to standard WuDe ideas where that would be unacceptable. There are other principles too which make this unlikely.
I think that maybe you have that saying the wrong way round and that it is the little brother who strikes first.
As to OP:
Taiji is long fist, has a lot of strikes.
Last edited by RenDaHai; 07-25-2013 at 12:51 AM.
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I'm pretty sure I have heard it from them a few times. Neutralizing and borrowing power is just one of the tools of Chen Taiji. The most important thing is to finish the opponent as fast as possible which should be the most important principle of any martial art. As for Wude if something happens you won't find much of it in rural China. Street fights are common around Chen village.
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What if the intent of the first attack is to draw a reaction from which you borrow the force?
Praying Mantis does that all the time. That is also the Shuai Jiao push-pull idea.
Or does Tai Chi not favor initiating that way?
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Slip the punch, help him get off balance, and come back with a sweep, punch, body strike, or throw.
A grab is not the actual attack. You have to see what comes at you after that. If he is just rigidly holding on, he has given you control, and you can move him and take advantage.
羅王宗
A fair point, its a common strategy, like to draw the bow and other classic techniques. Never the less you cannot guarantee they will take the bait so it is not the same strategy as reacting only. If they do not react to the first attack it must have the ability to change from empty to solid.
羅王宗
Most important principle of a martial art is not to finish the opponent at all.
Wude is not just about morality. It is about safety. Wude is about keeping yourself safe. The law is a much stronger opponent than any man, safety is not just about the fight itself but also the consequences.
In old China, even within living memory, the father is punished along side the son for his crimes. Striking first is to escalate the fight, when you know your family will have to pay for any transgression you make, you will be sure you keep to the law closely if you are a citizen. Their are myriad consequences to every fight, I am certain no serious Taiji master would advocate striking first.
Never the less I don't want to derail the thread into an argument about Wude.
Taiji has a lot of strikes.
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When you pull your opponent and run in circle, how many ways can he responds? He can:
- move toward you and yield into your force.
- move away from you and fight against your force.
This is the fun part of the TCMA. You try to use your set up but only give your opponent limit amout options to respond. It's better to lead your opponent into an area that you are more familiar with than he does.
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-25-2013 at 10:21 PM.
http://johnswang.com
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To me both a striking and a defensive art . Because you can defend yourself , but if you don ' t stop the opponent , he still is going to be attacking you . So you need to strike back .
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In old China, the father had to pay ransom to get his boy back from bandit kidnapping.
Aparently you have not lived in Manchuria in old China. My grand father leased his farm land to 270 independent farmers. He kept 275 riffles in his house incase bandit attack. All his boys (my father included) had to learn how to shoot firearm and ride horse without saddle at the age of 7.
One of my uncle could shot so well that if you shot a hole into the dirt wall, his gun could shot into the same hole. If you dig out bullets from the dirt wall, you will find both bullets in the same hole.
When the communist soldiers attacked 开原(Kai Yuan) when my father was mayor there, my 10 years old cousin rode horse without saddle and got away from those communist soldiers riffle shooting when those soldiers tried to get his white horse.
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-25-2013 at 10:44 PM.
http://johnswang.com
More opinion -> more argument
Less opinion -> less argument
No opinion -> no argument
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No sane TCMA master wants to hurt others and in today's society especially in China it's unlikely to face any serious danger so Taiji has become a hobby for old people but that's not how it was before. In an imaginary dangerous situation(which I admit is unlikely to happen in today's society) or even in a sanshou competition avoiding to strike and completely relying on huajie only works when you are sure your gongfu is twice better than your opponent's gongfu or this will happen:
http://v.ku6.com/show/RmFD5xVBN8njUbfGlAA0wg...html
羅王宗
Cool story. Yes it is true, going back to my ShiYe's age group all are good with rifles and a type of hand gun I think they call the 8 bullet gun or something.
But Bandits are the disenfranchised, they are at war with society, their very presence is itself an attack, it is very different set of rules to fighting with another citizen, someone else from your village lets say. During the War of course things were skewed.
China has gone through some very rough times in even recent history. But despite living through these rough times it is my ShiYe and others his age who lecture most on the rules of WuDe. Why would this be so if these rules did not serve them well through the rough times? Certainly in our societies today we are not in such danger from bandits but from other citizens we share our society with, and in this the rules of WuDe can be very useful to us. Safety must be as much safety from the consequences of combat as from the combat itself.
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Oneday I asked a Taiji guy, "How do you kill your opponent with your Huajine?" He then asked me, "Why do I want to kill my opponent for?" The discussion stopped right there. I don't know whether he belongs to the main stream or I do.
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-25-2013 at 11:53 PM.
http://johnswang.com
More opinion -> more argument
Less opinion -> less argument
No opinion -> no argument
羅王宗
The answer is simple,
Huajie is a more mysterious principle than you give it credit for.
When someone revelas their murderous intent to you, that awakens both fear and murderous intent in yourself. This way you have borrowed his 'ShaXin' and can use it to kill him.
When you know someones intent, then you know yours must match his or you will lose, in this way you can borrow his intent. This is part of the same principle. But you can not know this for certain until he revelas it. That is why you should not reveal first. What if you reveal first but fail, then you have already lost, he will borrow your intent and use it against you.
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White Crane Spreads it's Wings:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLIFyxLVl7Q
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