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Thread: Using heavy weapons for strength training

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Sometime too much weight is not a good idea. I started my square bag throwing from 16 lb.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR3v7...ature=youtu.be

    Oneday I gradulate increased to 23 lbs, 1st my female students started to complain. Later some male students felt pulling muscle in their shoulder joint. I soon drop the weight back down to 21 lb and never passed that.

    In the gym, I will use the weight pulley in fast motion (fast pull, fast release). If I just work on 55 lb, I'll be OK. Whenever I worked on 60 lb (just 5 lb more), I could feel some pulling muscle in my elbow joint.

    Heavy weight and speed just don't go together. You should dominate weight. Never let weight to dominate you.

    You need to progress to the point that you CAN increase the resistance.
    Many people jump to quickly and get hurt or lose their form.
    Slow progression is crucial when using ANY resistance in an explosive manner.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    You need to progress to the point that you CAN increase the resistance.
    Many people jump to quickly and get hurt or lose their form.
    Slow progression is crucial when using ANY resistance in an explosive manner.
    If you use "constant speed" on your heavy weight, it will be OK for your joints. If you use weight to develop "寸劲(Cun Jin) - inch force" and "爆发力(Bao Fa Li) - explosive power", Too much weight will hurt your joints.

    A simple example, if you hold on a 50 lb dumbbell, straight your arm and then bend your arm in "fast speed", and repeat it 60 times, you will feel injury in your elbow joint.

    I had hurt my elbow joints 5 times in my life. 3 times was from the weight pulley in my gym. twice was from lifting up my throwing dummy on the ground "too fast". After that I have only 2 choices,

    1. reduce speed and maintain the same weight, or
    2. maintain the speed and reduce the weight.

    I took the 2nd option.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-24-2013 at 11:20 AM.
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  3. #48
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    In many people's "training log", you may see:

    Bench: 100kg
    Deadlift: 190kg
    Squat: probably about 140/150kg
    BW: 90

    Why is it so popular for people to talk about their daily weight training and not their daily "skill development"? Something like:

    Jab/cross 200 times,
    roundhouse kick 200 times,
    hip throw 300 times,
    single leg 300 times,
    - ...
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-24-2013 at 02:12 PM.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    In many people's "log", you may see:

    Bench: 100kg
    Deadlift: 190kg
    Squat: probably about 140/150kg
    BW: 90

    Why is it so popular for people to talk about their daily weight training and not their daily "skill development"?
    weight training is quantifiable whereas skill development not so much. Probably also ego driven.
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    point sparring is a great way to train

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    In many people's "log", you may see:

    Bench: 100kg
    Deadlift: 190kg
    Squat: probably about 140/150kg
    BW: 90

    Why is it so popular for people to talk about their daily weight training and not their daily "skill development"? Something like:

    Jab/cross 200 times,
    roundhouse kick 200 times,
    hip throw 300 times,
    single leg 300 times,
    - ...
    If I do endurance training I make sure to include repetitions and times in my log.

    For kickboxing workouts I will include number of rounds spent on heavy bag, mitts, etc.

    The difference is that if I squat 3 sets of 6 at 130 kg, it's objective...either I did it or I didn't. For skills, I can't always be certain if I had 3 great rounds on the heavy bag or 3 mediocre rounds.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brule View Post
    weight training is quantifiable whereas skill development not so much. Probably also ego driven.
    Both are correct.
    See, weight training is uni formally quantifiable.
    Benching 300lbs for 5 reps is benching 300 lbs for 5 reps.
    Now, we can argue about form, but the point is to lift 300lbs off your chest and hold it there.
    3 guys can throw 500 kicks into a bag and all 3 will throw then with different intensities and speed.

    See what I am saying?

    A guy saying he can do bag work for 30 min non-stop means nothing because it isn't quantifiable ( intensity and force not being able to be "counted").
    A guy saying he can deadlift 400LBS means something.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  7. #52
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    Some people may think that

    weight training = combat training

    that's what I don't understand. I have always associated "weight training" and "long distance running" as "health maintenance" and not combat related.

    When I use my legs to lift weight on this machine, I feel that I'm doing it for health.

    http://imageshack.us/a/img560/7456/qdfn.jpg

    When I use both arms to twist on this machine, I feel that I'm doing it for combat (because I can twist my opponent down to the ground).

    http://imageshack.us/a/img198/6186/rotarytorso.jpg
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-24-2013 at 12:45 PM.
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Some people may think that

    weight training = combat training

    that's what I don't understand. I have always associated "weight training" and "long distance running" as "health maintenance" and not combat related.

    When I use my legs to lift weight on this machine, I feel that I'm doing or health.

    http://imageshack.us/a/img560/7456/qdfn.jpg

    When I use both my arms to twist on this machine, I feel that I'm doing combat.

    http://imageshack.us/a/img198/6186/rotarytorso.jpg
    Strength training has NOTHING to do with combat/fighting training.
    ZERO.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Both are correct.
    See, weight training is uni formally quantifiable.
    Benching 300lbs for 5 reps is benching 300 lbs for 5 reps.
    Now, we can argue about form, but the point is to lift 300lbs off your chest and hold it there.
    3 guys can throw 500 kicks into a bag and all 3 will throw then with different intensities and speed.

    See what I am saying?

    A guy saying he can do bag work for 30 min non-stop means nothing because it isn't quantifiable ( intensity and force not being able to be "counted").
    A guy saying he can deadlift 400LBS means something.
    Just for the record. I can deadlift over 400lb (or at least I could as of my last attempt). I didn't find a huge crossover between before I started deadlifting and after I made it up to that point. It made it somewhat easier to brute force my way out of some difficult clinch and takedown scenarios but I felt I got much more bang for my buck just spending that time in heavy san shou training with semi and non compliant partners. Same goes for squats, bench press, etc.

    What I have gotten a lot out of are plyometrics (dropping and catching yourself with your hands, sprawls, frog jumps, heavy bag work, and any other sort of explosive negative).

    I am not saying that lifting doesnt help, I am sure it did somewhat, but I think it would help a person that was not doing much athletically a whole lot more than it does someone that spends a lot of time running, wrestling, shadowboxing, and working with partners.

    YMMV I suppose.
    -Golden Arms-

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Arms View Post
    Just for the record. I can deadlift over 400lb (or at least I could as of my last attempt). I didn't find a huge crossover between before I started deadlifting and after I made it up to that point. It made it somewhat easier to brute force my way out of some difficult clinch and takedown scenarios but I felt I got much more bang for my buck just spending that time in heavy san shou training with semi and non compliant partners. Same goes for squats, bench press, etc.

    What I have gotten a lot out of are plyometrics (dropping and catching yourself with your hands, sprawls, frog jumps, heavy bag work, and any other sort of explosive negative).

    I am not saying that lifting doesnt help, I am sure it did somewhat, but I think it would help a person that was not doing much athletically a whole lot more than it does someone that spends a lot of time running, wrestling, shadowboxing, and working with partners.

    YMMV I suppose.
    Actions are task specific and MA as "sport specific" actions.
    You will always get the most carryover when performing something that is as direct as possible to the task.
    In terms of fighting, whatever you do that is the most direct-related to fighting will be what gives you the most carry over.
    ST has never been about that, the reason it has been a part of MA since the dawn of time is because:
    Strong bodies make strong fighters = better chance for survival.

    All MA have always included GENERAL strength training and specific.
    Just like the include general endurance (running) and specific endurance (sparring/bag work).

    I don't ever recall my ability to DL making me a better fighter, BUT I do like the fact that I can lift and carry really heavy stuff and NOT hurt myself.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Strength training has NOTHING to do with combat/fighting training.
    ZERO.
    It can be.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmK-R...ature=youtu.be

    That's the beauty of the TCMA training - to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-24-2013 at 12:56 PM.
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    More opinion -> more argument
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    No opinion -> no argument

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    It can be.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmK-R...ature=youtu.be

    That's the beauty of the TCMA training - to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
    and so the circular debate goes on, you ask this question every few months, people post why they feel you are wrong and you post why you feel you are correct...and then the same thread comes along again with the same arguments why not just accept it is what it is and move on

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    It can be.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmK-R...ature=youtu.be

    That's the beauty of the TCMA training - to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
    Unless he is training to fight a wheel barrow, how is that combat training?
    Anymore than this:
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  14. #59
    Greetings,

    sanjuro ronin,

    There is that gray area where strength training and martial training overlap. It does not happen very often, but it does happen. Let's look at that twisting apparatus that YKW was talking about. Yes, it is a strength training device. If, while doing it, YKW's mindset is martial conditioning for a certain type of throw, it is no longer simply strength training anymore. While it may appear that way to the observer, it is not being experienced that way by YKW.


    mickey

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickey View Post
    There is that gray area where strength training and martial training overlap.
    Thanks for pointing this out. Maybe my Chinglish, I just can't make this clear.

    The Chinese wrestling is in very awkward position. Judo or wrestling don't treat it as one of them. Sometime even TCMA may treat it as "foreign".

    I'm always interesting in to "kill 2 birds with 1 stone". When I find it, I like to share it to the others. Even if it may be just one person who can pick up this idea of "kill 2 birds with 1 stone", my efford of "repeating myself" will not be wasted. If any new MA training tools that can be invented from this same idea, everybody will be benefitted.

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Unless he is training to fight a wheel barrow, how is that combat training?
    That clip doesn't include the footwork. If you use

    - left hand to grab on your opponwnt's right upper-arm,
    - right hand to grab on his left upper-arm,
    - left arm to "push" his right upper-arm,
    - right arm to "pull" his left upper-arm,
    - right stealing step to spin your body to your right,

    you can twist (push and pull) your opponent from a stand up position all the way down to the ground.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-24-2013 at 01:57 PM.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
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