WSL Ving Tsun - Sifu Cliff Au Yeung - Blindfold Gor Sau Training

[Graham H]

In fact they probably made a lot of stuff up so I wouldn't hold Yip Man responsible. Yip Chun especially.

[k gledhill]

Why whenever anyone mentions sensitivity do some people assume this equates to arm chasing. All high level fighters in all systems develop tactile responses its just that many systems rely on experience to teach it rather than having specific drills. Using the tactile responses is far faster than having rely on visual processing. When you are doing your lap sao drills do you rely on your eyes to tell you that the partner has made contact with your arm? or can you tell without looking when they over commit and cross the centre line or alternatively come up short? This is sensitivity, using the information that your arms receive upon contact to find angles and gaps, nothing to do with sticking or chasing arms, and what Ip Man was referring to when he said " the opponent will show you how to hit them"

This is wrong thinking.

[Graham H]

This is wrong thinking.

Don't tell him that kev! He will say you are in denial!

[LFJ]

No I don't agree! What if he kicks, head butts, grabs or dives?? What if you can't strike forward at that moment? Its not LSJC?

The principle simply states if your centerline attack is met with obstruction, when the obstruction is removed by whatever means (center opened), your attack should continue rather than be retracted or hung in the air. The force that makes this a non-thinking action is constant forward intent. Do you disagree with this as a basic principle?

Here is my interpretation of the whole phrase from literal to more interpretive or succinct:

LLHS; LSJC:

-When the opponent comes you remain (don't retreat). When the opponent goes you escort (chase center); When the opponent's arm is removed, charge straight.
-Intercept what comes. Escort what goes.; When the line is cleared, attack instinctively.
-Cut the line. Stick on 'em.; When a gap is made, fill it.

The first half is what I call constant forward pressure. The second half is what I call automatic response to a line cleared of obstruction.

The second half is an effect of having developed the first.

[k gledhill]

Don't tell him that kev! He will say you are in denial!

Lightning is hard to touch ; ) but fun to watch people try !
Or try to make pressure on lightning.

[Graham H]

The principle simply states if your centerline attack is met with obstruction, when the obstruction is removed by whatever means (center opened), your attack should continue rather than be retracted or hung in the air. The force that makes this a non-thinking action is constant forward intent. Do you disagree with this as a basic principle?

Kind of but for it to be LSJC it doesn't need obstacles. LSJC is your whole movement. The forward intent is always there regardless. Even if you have to retreat and/or evade there is still LSJC

Here is my interpretation of the whole phrase from literal to more interpretive or succinct:

LLHS; LSJC:

-When the opponent comes you remain (don't retreat).

Don't agree. Sometimes you need to.

When the opponent goes you escort (chase center); When the opponent's arm is removed, charge straight.

Don't agree. What if he hasn't tried to strike you but is retreating? You may have pre empted

-Intercept what comes. Escort what goes.; When the line is cleared, attack instinctively.
-Cut the line. Stick on 'em.; When a gap is made, fill it.

Intercept an attack, stick to him if he tries to evade or retreat, thrust forward without hesitation at every opportunity.

So we are slightly different. My way works for me and I can show it, teach it and use it. I don't explain things like you anymore although I did prior to meeting Bayer.

Must go training now. Laters x

[LFJ]

Kind of but for it to be LSJC it doesn't need obstacles. LSJC is your whole movement. The forward intent is always there regardless. Even if you have to retreat and/or evade there is still LSJC

Well, fine. That is what I think LLHS refers to in general. It doesn't make sense to mention the opponent's arm in the name of your own movement that doesn't have anything to do with their arm, but if you insist...

Don't agree. Sometimes you need to.

Retreat straight back? The "pushed step" is the closest thing to that perhaps, but it is angling and "remaining" (lau) in range to keep forward pressure on the opponent.

Don't agree. What if he hasn't tried to strike you but is retreating? You may have pre empted

Then I would ask you why this:

stick to him if he tries to evade or retreat, thrust forward without hesitation at every opportunity.

When you cut open their center, or they make a mistake, I call that an opportunity.

Must go to sleep now. Peace. x

[Paul T England]

Logic and understnading wil answer for you.

Why do some people refer to Bong Sau as wing arm block and other refer to the bone between the shoulder and the elbow? (They are the same thing, the upper arm is all birds have and its their wing!!!)

Why do some people translate Fook Sau as controlling or subduing hand and other say its a punch? (It is a fook sau but for application it can turn into a punch)

Why do some people say tan sau means spreading palm block? (It means spreading hand (like spreading butter from my understanding)

Why do some people translate Chum Kiu as searching for the arm bridge and others relate the bridge to be the line to your opponent? (without chasing hands they are the same!)

Why do some people say Loi lau means make arm contact and other say its about intercepting an attack with your own? (Now we are getting silly)

Why do some people say that Bij Jee is about developing finger jabs? (SNT, CK and BJ have more depth than I understand but also more than most other chunners coudl dream of)

Why do some people think the weapons are only in the system for traditional purposes? (They are these days but you can still keep the techniques and skills alive, plus they add uch for power and application. Generally training with weapons enhances empty hand skills, try a live blade!!!)

Some people say "sau" means hand. Others say arm. Some say both. It can mean both depending on context surely?

Why o why o why?

You see anything in Wing Chun can mean anything depending on who is saying it so your literal translations are BS.

Being able to speak Chinese means nothing. (understanding the language and culture can help you but not without real instruction)

David Peterson is fluent in Mandarin and can speak Cantonese yet he and my Sifu have different understandings of WSLVT. Why do you think that is LFJ? You think PB has misinterpreted it because he cannot speak the lingo?

WSL and PB understood each other perfectly mate. In fact the understanding between PB and WSL was one of the best. Not my words either.

[Graham H]

Logic and understnading wil answer for you.

(They are the same thing, the upper arm is all birds have and its their wing!!!)

Rubbish

(It is a fook sau but for application it can turn into a punch)

(like spreading butter from my understanding)

Rubbish

(without chasing hands they are the same!)

(Now we are getting silly)

jesus, what are you on about?

(SNT, CK and BJ have more depth than I understand but also more than most other chunners coudl dream of)

lmfao

(They are these days but you can still keep the techniques and skills alive, plus they add uch for power and application. Generally training with weapons enhances empty hand skills, try a live blade!!!)

Oh dear I actually agree with you.

(understanding the language and culture can help you but not without real instruction)

Rubbish

[Graham H]

Well, fine. That is what I think LLHS refers to in general. It doesn't make sense to mention the opponent's arm in the name of your own movement that doesn't have anything to do with their arm, but if you insist...

Yes I insist

Retreat straight back? The "pushed step" is the closest thing to that perhaps, but it is angling and "remaining" (lau) in range to keep forward pressure on the opponent.

Yep. You think if you are being attacked by a 19 stone drunk idiot you can "keep forward pressure" on him do you. Brave guy.

When you cut open their center, or they make a mistake, I call that an opportunity.

With your can opener arms?

I hope you slept well mon frere! lol

[LFJ]

On the 'language barrier', I've seen foreigners come to China for training and their lack of language ability really is a barrier at times. You can monkey-see, monkey-do and get by. But even with an interpreter, if their translation is rubbish you'll be missing important details, or in the worst case the point entirely because you are led to believe the master was saying something which they weren't quite.

I would say it is obvious the one who can directly understand the detailed explanation as it is coming out of the master's mouth in their native tongue will have a greater likelihood of understanding their complete message, as opposed to one relying solely on monkey-see, monkey-do, or getting the wrong information from a poor translator, or even when the master's English is not good enough for them to express everything they would like. Something is likely to be missing, such as the more abstract concepts.

[LFJ]

Yep. You think if you are being attacked by a 19 stone drunk idiot you can "keep forward pressure" on him do you. Brave guy.

Depends on the size and composition of the stones...

But seriously, they will be strongest in one direction- the front. Change angle and suddenly they can be manipulated much more easily, especially if they're drunk.

[Graham H]

On the 'language barrier', I've seen foreigners come to China for training and their lack of language ability really is a barrier at times. You can monkey-see, monkey-do and get by. But even with an interpreter, if their translation is rubbish you'll be missing important details, or in the worst case the point entirely because you are led to believe the master was saying something which they weren't quite.

I would say it is obvious the one who can directly understand the detailed explanation as it is coming out of the master's mouth in their native tongue will have a greater likelihood of understanding their complete message, as opposed to one relying solely on monkey-see, monkey-do, or getting the wrong information from a poor translator, or even when the master's English is not good enough for them to express everything they would like. Something is likely to be missing, such as the more abstract concepts.

I will have to disagree. Speaking the language means nothing. Look at Gary Lam. He is Chinese and taught in WSL's own school and look what a mess he has been teaching and using. PB and WSL could talk directly after time and he spent many more vital hours in the company of WSL than most. He lived in HK for the first 18 months of his time with WSL and was living with a Chinese family.

Many of WSL's students visited for holidays. They were not full time students and assistants. Added to that is that PB is a fighter and an intelligent dude. He was one of the only Westerners ever to go to the sparring classes in HK and he also went on holidays with WSL and his wife. This would have gave him many many hours of talking time with WSL as well as practicing.

Just because you can speak Chinese does not mean you will a great VT practitioner, fighter and Teacher.

When I told Simo and Chen Kin Man I was studying under Bayer they both told me he was the best. There weren't many other names flying around the table when we were talking about people that had WSL's thinking mate. I would have noted it.

[Graham H]

Depends on the size and composition of the stones...

But seriously, they will be strongest in one direction- the front. Change angle and suddenly they can be manipulated much more easily, especially if they're drunk.

Easy to talk about when the threat of serious injury and fear are taken away isn't it?

[k gledhill]

A little known fact was how much time WSL and PB trained in Germany. At the period of WSL death, PB was building an apt over his own home for WSL and his wife to move to Germany.