WSL Ving Tsun - Sifu Cliff Au Yeung - Blindfold Gor Sau Training

[Vajramusti]

Aka joys Kau sau ( only he understands ); )

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Too bad- you don't. Not interested in any conversion.

[k gledhill]

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Too bad- you don't. Not interested in any conversion.

I used to think Kau sao was a way to manipulate arms in chi sao too. Wrong thinking based on chi sao combat exchange. A misinterpreted huen sao done on a rigid dummy arm. Come on, froggy ! Stop eating the crickets and listen to one.

[Vajramusti]

I used to think Kau sao was a way to manipulate arms in chi sao too. Wrong thinking based on chi sao combat exchange. A misinterpreted huen sao done on a rigid dummy arm. Come on, froggy ! Stop eating the crickets and listen to one.

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I have seen you move in VK days..witha different sifu you try to quack differently-but your moves in the recent seminar are still stiff. Your attempts at humor are usual poor.

[LFJ]

BPWT and Vajramusti both use the term 'kau-sau', but refer to two completely different actions;

BPWT's kau-sau is like a hyun-sau with high elbow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouYQ9NhH0lo

Vajramusti's kau-sau looks like a paak-sau from the front but flicks the wrist and pulls in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf17b2VBcZo

Two completely different actions with the same name.

Don't exist in WSLVT.

[k gledhill]

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I have seen you move in VK days..witha different sifu you try to quack differently-but your moves in the recent seminar are still stiff. Your attempts at humor are usual poor.

Allegiance is not a guarantee of anything joy.

[Vajramusti]

BPWT and Vajramusti both use the term 'kau-sau', but refer to two completely different actions;

BPWT's kau-sau is like a hyun-sau with high elbow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouYQ9NhH0lo

Vajramusti's kau-sau looks like a paak-sau from the front but flicks the wrist and pulls in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf17b2VBcZo

Two completely different actions with the same name.

Don't exist in WSLVT.

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True Lots of stuff not in what you call WSLVT.

[Vajramusti]

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True Lots of stuff not in what you call WSLVT.

The tyranny of words.

[k gledhill]

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True Lots of stuff not in what you call WSLVT.

Lots of Fong inventions by your own admission.

[WC1277]

Kau sau is essentially a huen sau motion that rotates 'outside-in', not 'in-outside' like the huen. The wrist does NOT twist to the inside but retains a 'lap sau grip' type shape in application either horizontally or vertically depending.

An easy example where it can be found used is in the chi sao roll 'switch'. People sometimes will try to punch in as you roll your tan sau out to the fok sau during the switch. That roll out, you could say, is the first part of the motion of kau sau. That space in between your completion to fok, since your hand is essentially parallel to their forearm, the normal reaction people do is try to pak or try to slip their jum sau past the forearm to intercept the attack. What the kau sau does instead is lightly grip the arm, no thumb, in almost a reversed lap sau like position(which it essentially is already in) and slightly guides the incoming arm off the line. In this particular situation, Kau sau can allow a faster return attack because it doesn't require any "active" motion on your part since the opponent is essentially turning himself off the line with your kau sau just being there. However, kau sau 'potentially' could be used in an 'active' state. Like I said above, think reversed lap sau.

So in short, huen sau twists from when on top of the opponents arm and rotates from "inside to outside" to gain the inside line and kau sau twists from below the opponents arm and rotates from "outside to inside" to gain the outside 'inside-facing' line. Two completely different motions.

[Graham H]

Kau sau is essentially a huen sau motion that rotates 'outside-in', not 'in-outside' like the huen. The wrist does NOT twist to the inside but retains a 'lap sau grip' type shape in application either horizontally or vertically depending.

An easy example where it can be found used is in the chi sao roll 'switch'. People sometimes will try to punch in as you roll your tan sau out to the fok sau during the switch. That roll out, you could say, is the first part of the motion of kau sau. That space in between your completion to fok, since your hand is essentially parallel to their forearm, the normal reaction people do is try to pak or try to slip their jum sau past the forearm to intercept the attack. What the kau sau does instead is lightly grip the arm, no thumb, in almost a reversed lap sau like position(which it essentially is already in) and slightly guides the incoming arm off the line. In this particular situation, Kau sau can allow a faster return attack because it doesn't require any "active" motion on your part since the opponent is essentially turning himself off the line with your kau sau just being there. However, kau sau 'potentially' could be used in an 'active' state. Like I said above, think reversed lap sau.

So in short, huen sau twists from when on top of the opponents arm and rotates from "inside to outside" to gain the inside line and kau sau twists from below the opponents arm and rotates from "outside to inside" to gain the outside 'inside-facing' line. Two completely different motions.

More over indulged chi sau nonsense that wouldn't work for sh1t in a real fight!!!

[BPWT]

More over indulged chi sau nonsense that wouldn't work for sh1t in a real fight!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPdl-mGKL-Y

At 2:50 - 2:54, WSL is showing application of an idea from a movement of the dummy form (showing that you can indeed illustrate with applications from the forms). Here he is showing an application that takes advantage of the stick.

At 2:50, why perform this movement with his right arm? He could just as easily have shifted and used his left hand only to cut the new angle.

IMO, he is taking advantage of the stick/contact his right hand has, to aid the attack he issues with his left hand.

Why do you think he does this?

[tc101]

More over indulged chi sau nonsense that wouldn't work for sh1t in a real fight!!!

I think many people look through chi sau prisms and form their perspective of wing chun in that way.

[wingchunIan]

From my perspective kau sao performs a similar function to huen sao and each is a tool for the job in hand. Huen sao is the default choice if the direction of force is nice and horizontal as it allows the elbow to remain low giving cover and lining up the follow up strike however if the line of incoming force is angled upwards huen sao then becomes a battle and will not work as illustrated in the dummy form by the immovable arm of the dummy. In such circumstances kau sao still allows you to pass the force and re-angle. From experience it works exceptionally well against hooks to the body when you've moved slightly out of range / angled and the shot connects with the inside of your arm forearm to forearm. It prevents your arm from being dragged off of centre and allows you to turn the opponent using their own momentum.

[BPWT]

From my perspective kau sao performs a similar function to huen sao and each is a tool for the job in hand. Huen sao is the default choice if the direction of force is nice and horizontal as it allows the elbow to remain low giving cover and lining up the follow up strike however if the line of incoming force is angled upwards huen sao then becomes a battle and will not work as illustrated in the dummy form by the immovable arm of the dummy. In such circumstances kau sao still allows you to pass the force and re-angle. From experience it works exceptionally well against hooks to the body when you've moved slightly out of range / angled and the shot connects with the inside of your arm forearm to forearm. It prevents your arm from being dragged off of centre and allows you to turn the opponent using their own momentum.

Indeed.

But please understand that there are those who feel "that sh1t won't work", it is "nonsense", it is "BS", it is a "common misconception" it is "a mistake they used to make", etc.

Never mind that these ideas of clearing the line and altering the line are actually shown by WSL in seminars, that the man maintains stick when he needs to, etc. Or the fact that even PB himself (gulp) uses bridges and redirects.

[LFJ]

From experience it works exceptionally well against hooks to the body when you've moved slightly out of range / angled and the shot connects with the inside of your arm forearm to forearm. It prevents your arm from being dragged off of centre and allows you to turn the opponent using their own momentum.

Is this purposeful? You move out of range so that you can cross yourself only to then need to undo it with a neat move?