WSL Ving Tsun - Sifu Cliff Au Yeung - Blindfold Gor Sau Training

[Graham H]

I think developing Lsjc in chi sau is, as wingchunIan notes, to use "[...] the information that your arms receive upon contact to find angles and gaps".

Eh? So you are saying that LSJC is about receiving information are you?

However, I feel the idea of Lsjc and the rattan cane are perhaps more relevant to developing fighting skills through chi sau.

Jesus! LSJC has nothing to do with rattan circles!

Yes, you can feel for a gap but you don't process that information through your mind; that forward intent is already there so that when the linchpin is removed, your strike is already on its way.

Poppy****!

I must add that lsjc, for me at least, has been hard to develop; particularly the subtleties and balance so that your opponent cannot use that intent against you. I will also add that, at least through the Ip Chun lineage I initially trained through, lsjc is not something trained very often nor is it, much to my frustration, a concept made explicit to students.

LSJC is an important part of Ving Tsun. It's not hard to develop if the training methods are correct unless the student is a bit useless. maintaining it in sparring is another story. I never even heard of LSJC in the Ip Chun lineage.

LSJC has been roughly translated to "loss of contact, thrust forward without hesitation". People wrongly assume that the "loss of contact" bit means that we already have arm contact and when it is released we should thrust forward using some kind of springy energy. That is a common misconception in Wing Chun.

[wingchunIan]

LSJC is an important part of Ving Tsun. It's not hard to develop if the training methods are correct unless the student is a bit useless. maintaining it in sparring is another story. I never even heard of LSJC in the Ip Chun lineage.

My own lineage is Ip Chun and we teach LSJC as part of SNT and it is a source of emphasis as soon as a student starts poon sao or any other interactive training. It is one of the core concepts we teach and it receives a great deal of emphasis.

LSJC has been roughly translated to "loss of contact, thrust forward without hesitation". People wrongly assume that the "loss of contact" bit means that we already have arm contact and when it is released we should thrust forward using some kind of springy energy. That is a common misconception in Wing Chun.

Our definition of LSJC is applies any time that there is nothing between the the striking limb and the target whether there was contact in the first place or not, but it is interesting to note that the concept you describe is part of the majority of wing chun teachings including most of Ip Man's direct students. Also interesting how often the first two thirds of the maxim get omitted

[Paddington]

Graham, you have misunderstood some of what I have said.

I do say in my post that by information I am being very broad and I am quick to move away from Ian's position; I even say I am not referring to using the mind to think. If I feel pressure or an absence of pressure, that is still information for my body. To my mind lsjc is still conditioning a response to stimuli or information so I see that as bound up with it.

Further I am talking about a rattan cane not a circle; it is flexible like bamboo and springy. Yes, that is to think of lsjc in that way; it is very subtle though and more a trigger for movement for the strike once the gap is there; that forward light springy intent as a c o c k e d hammer of a gun that can trigger a more explosive and powerful burst, here the movements for a strike with hips and elbows connected.

Incidentally, a lot of what I outline above is just my thoughts and most of those thoughts have come from others not associated with or training through an Ip Chun lineage.

Please feel free to post up your further analogies to help me better understand this concept.

p.s.

[...] It's not hard to develop if the training methods are correct unless the student is a bit useless.
[...]

A bit ad hominem, no?

[Graham H]

Graham, you have misunderstood some of what I have said.

I do say in my post that by information I am being very broad and I am quick to move away from Ian's position; I even say I am not referring to using the mind to think. If I feel pressure or an absence of pressure, that is still information for my body. To my mind lsjc is still conditioning a response to stimuli or information so I see that as bound up with it.

Further I am talking about a rattan cane not a circle; it is flexible like bamboo and springy. Yes, that is to think of lsjc in that way; it is very subtle though and more a trigger for movement for the strike once the gap is there; that forward light springy intent as a c o c k e d hammer of a gun that can trigger a more explosive and powerful burst, here the movements for a strike with hips and elbows connected.

Incidentally, a lot of what I outline above is just my thoughts and most of those thoughts have come from others not associated with or training through an Ip Chun lineage.

Please feel free to post up your further analogies to help me better understand this concept.

p.s.

Why don't you just explain your understanding of what LSJC is.

A bit ad hominem, no?

No

[Paddington]

Why don't you just explain your understanding of what LSJC is [...]

Hmm, perhaps others could me advise me as to the status of my sanity, for I believe I already gave Graham and example of my thoughts?

[Graham H]

Hmm, perhaps others could me advise me as to the status of my sanity, for I believe I already gave Graham and example of my thoughts?

Yes and I don't agree with you.

[Paddington]

Yes and I don't agree with you.

That's fine, man. I am just here to learn and I am not asking anyone to take on what I am saying. I am not a Sifu and don't claim to be. TBH I would rather come out and say how I view things and then be corrected by someone should I be in error, than to not have said anything at all.

So, Graham, I am happy to read, in your own words, how you view these themes. How would you teach them? I always find that question helps me get the concepts.

[LFJ]

LSJC has been roughly translated to "loss of contact, thrust forward without hesitation". People wrongly assume that the "loss of contact" bit means that we already have arm contact and when it is released we should thrust forward using some kind of springy energy. That is a common misconception in Wing Chun.

I know what you mean when others only focus on this "springy energy" effect once contact is made, and even seek to make contact so they can use it as some sort of sensitivity trick but neglect constant forward energy as a general principle. They are misguided, but from my viewpoint you're confusing LSJC with LLHS. What I mean:

The way I understand the LLHS-LSJC phrase is interaction between the opponent and yourself, how to act in relation to the opponent;

-When the opponent "advances" (loi) you "remain" (lau), i.e. make use of angling and such to keep the pressure forward but don't retreat taking pressure away.
-When the opponent "retreats" (heui) you "see them off" (sung), i.e. you advance keeping the pressure on them.
-When the opponent's "arm is removed" (lat-sau) you "rush straight" (jik-chung), i.e. you strike forward to their center.

LLHS is all about that constant forward energy.
LSJC is an effect of that energy when met with and once breaking obstruction.

I see you interpreting LSJC as LLHS, i.e. constant forward energy moving the whole structure as one unit. As a result, you replace LSJC with LLHS and deny the "springy energy" effect.

Well, what happens when contact is made with that sort of forward energy and is then suddenly lost, either by means of you removing the obstacle or the opponent taking their arm away? Do you not automatically "thrust forward without hesitation"? That is the LSJC part. If you aren't getting that effect, then something is wrong with your LLHS/forward energy. That's why it appears first in the phrase.

[BPWT]

The way I understand the LLHS-LSJC phrase is interaction between the opponent and yourself, how to act in relation to the opponent;

-When the opponent "advances" (loi) you "remain" (lau), i.e. make use of angling and such to keep the pressure forward but don't retreat taking pressure away.
-When the opponent "retreats" (heui) you "see them off" (sung), i.e. you advance keeping the pressure on them.
-When the opponent's "arm is removed" (lat-sau) you "rush straight" (jik-chung), i.e. you strike forward to their center.

LLHS is all about that constant forward energy.
LSJC is an effect of that energy when met with and once breaking obstruction.

Nice description

+1.

[Graham H]

I know what you mean when others only focus on this "springy energy" effect once contact is made, and even seek to make contact so they can use it as some sort of sensitivity trick but neglect constant forward energy as a general principle. They are misguided, but from my viewpoint you're confusing LSJC with LLHS. What I mean:

The way I understand the LLHS-LSJC phrase is interaction between the opponent and yourself, how to act in relation to the opponent;

-When the opponent "advances" (loi) you "remain" (lau), i.e. make use of angling and such to keep the pressure forward but don't retreat taking pressure away.
-When the opponent "retreats" (heui) you "see them off" (sung), i.e. you advance keeping the pressure on them.
-When the opponent's "arm is removed" (lat-sau) you "rush straight" (jik-chung), i.e. you strike forward to their center.

LLHS is all about that constant forward energy.
LSJC is an effect of that energy when met with and once breaking obstruction.

I see you interpreting LSJC as LLHS, i.e. constant forward energy moving the whole structure as one unit. As a result, you replace LSJC with LLHS and deny the "springy energy" effect.

Well, what happens when contact is made with that sort of forward energy and is then suddenly lost, either by means of you removing the obstacle or the opponent taking their arm away? Do you not automatically "thrust forward without hesitation"? That is the LSJC part. If you aren't getting that effect, then something is wrong with your LLHS/forward energy. That's why it appears first in the phrase.

If contact is made during your forward assault it is minimal. Most of the time only milliseconds. Chi Sau teaches us to continue not stick. We do not block or look to physically move limbs aside but rather use one arm for two purposes so two arms become 4 attacking and protecting entitiies. The correct punching strategy and the use of your bongs, paks, jut etc (should you need them) continue towards the opponent unless of course you are stopped in you tracks when evasive measures need to be taken.

In training we always attack forward (LSJC) so it becomes part of us. In a real fight things may not be so easy and we have to be aware of danger either presented by the attacker or from our own mistakes. LSJC is a concept of developing power using the whole body. Chi Sau builds the structure and Gor Sau uses the structure. There is no time for arm fighting.

In sparring I don't want my attacker to impede me so I will never make contact with his arms unless they hit mine during the punch in which case my elbow should deal with the problem. No elbow and you are left with what you usually see in Wing Chun schools. They use one arm to block and the other to punch. Tan Da is a prime example of this nonsense.

[LFJ]

@Graham

I agree, but you are interpreting LSJC as constant forward energy in moving your whole structure as one. But that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opponent's arms.

"Lat-sau" literally refers to the opponent's arm being removed. That sau is the opponent's arm. So LSJC is dependent upon the opponent's arm being there as an obstruction and what should happen once it's removed.

Why would simply attacking forward with the whole body, which has nothing to do with an opponent's arm, be named something like LSJC which starts off talking about the opponent's arm?

What I understand you to be talking about is actually LLHS.

Do you have another interpretation for LLHS then?

[Graham H]

So LSJC is dependent upon the opponent's arm being there as an obstruction and what should happen once it's removed.

Really? ok

game over

Toodle pip

[LFJ]

So LSJC is dependent upon the opponent's arm being there as an obstruction and what should happen once it's removed.

Really? ok

game over

Toodle pip

Literally, yes. That's what LSJC means. Of course not the concept you're describing, because that is not "LSJC", even though you call it that.

I get the feeling PB doesn't speak Chinese? Maybe there was some misinterpretation on his part. You're calling something by a name that doesn't fit it at all... If it has nothing to do with the opponent's arm, why is the opponent's arm in its name?

What you describe is LLHS, but you never mention that half of the phrase. I wonder if you have a different interpretation of what it means too?

[Graham H]

I get the feeling PB doesn't speak Chinese? Maybe there was some misinterpretation on his part.

OMFG!

[Graham H]

If it has nothing to do with the opponent's arm, why is the opponent's arm in its name?

Why do some people refer to Bong Sau as wing arm block and other refer to the bone between the shoulder and the elbow?

Why do some people translate Fook Sau as controlling or subduing hand and other say its a punch?

Why do some people say tan sau means spreading palm block?

Why do some people translate Chum Kiu as searching for the arm bridge and others relate the bridge to be the line to your opponent?

Why do some people say Loi lau means make arm contact and other say its about intercepting an attack with your own?

Why do some people say that Bij Jee is about developing finger jabs?

Why do some people think the weapons are only in the system for traditional purposes?

Some people say "sau" means hand. Others say arm. Some say both.

Why o why o why?

You see anything in Wing Chun can mean anything depending on who is saying it so your literal translations are BS.

Being able to speak Chinese means nothing.

David Peterson is fluent in Mandarin and can speak Cantonese yet he and my Sifu have different understandings of WSLVT. Why do you think that is LFJ? You think PB has misinterpreted it because he cannot speak the lingo?

WSL and PB understood each other perfectly mate. In fact the understanding between PB and WSL was one of the best. Not my words either.