WSL Ving Tsun - Sifu Cliff Au Yeung - Blindfold Gor Sau Training

[Ozzy Dave]

You guys arm chase. You try to manipulate the arms blocking your path in front of you by "striking" them. You arm chase and whether your dense mind can wrap around this concept or not. You arm chase!

Each to their own, however, I think you’re labouring under a misconception.

What this is really all about is the application of force and whether it is continuous and controlling (sticky) or ballistic and shocking.

You seem to have a preference for the former, which I would hazard a guess colours your opinions in general and your appreciation of timing in particular.

All arguments of whether there is bridging or tactile sensitivity involved is moot imo.

The basic thing to understand is that it is a continuum not a mutually exclusive scenario i.e. power moves from continuous to ballistic and both forms can be used in training and fighting, though sticky lends itself more to grappling technique.

It’s just a question of what you want to achieve - controlling the opponent’s cog or shocking it in order to produce involuntary responses as the WSL/PB lads advocate.

I’m with the WSL/PB crowd on this one.

2 cents back at ya...

Dave

[WC1277]

Each to their own, however, I think you’re labouring under a misconception.

What this is really all about is the application of force and whether it is continuous and controlling (sticky) or ballistic and shocking.

You seem to have a preference for the former, which I would hazard a guess colours your opinions in general and your appreciation of timing in particular.

All arguments of whether there is bridging or tactile sensitivity involved is moot imo.

The basic thing to understand is that it is a continuum not a mutually exclusive scenario i.e. power moves from continuous to ballistic and both forms can be used in training and fighting, though sticky lends itself more to grappling technique.

It’s just a question of what you want to achieve - controlling the opponent’s cog or shocking it in order to produce involuntary responses as the WSL/PB lads advocate.

I’m with the WSL/PB crowd on this one.

2 cents back at ya...

Dave

Involuntary responses from whom Dave? I can't think of one legitimate example of someone falling for this "arm striking" other than other WC guys or my nephew i.e. inexperienced people. It just seems dumb to be honest with you. Distance feinting would even be far more effective and more useful for good timing. I don't know. I never once was told or thought that you fight with chi sao or even that you'll actually be able to redirect attacks. That wasn't the point. However, positioning, adjustment, and timing can be developed with contact redirection development with simultaneous striking. If one legitimately develops the body to respond to incoming force on a line of attack, it doesn't matter if contact is there in actual application because you've conditioned yourself to yes, "turn" and adjust and balance yourself to the opponent. I mean come on! That's fighting 101 and WC has an excellent drill to develop that.

Also, how in the h€ll can one develop contact free timing from striking arms!? You are literally giving away an entire beat to arms that aren't going to be there!

[k gledhill]

Oh Yes, that's right, the infamous now "9 year" student whom no one is aware of, at least not in Tucson, the hub of who actually trains legitimately with Fong Sifu. Why can't you place him Kevin? What's his story? His name? Please tell?

No names , I did that before innocently with a Robert Chu student and the poor guy was suddenly a " low level " guy who trained once ; )

The point here is that HE said it to me ; ) he knew like I did , graham did and others who are introduced to the subtle shift in thinking. I didn't recruit him or try to change his mind , I just explained our thinking face to face.

[k gledhill]

Involuntary responses from whom Dave? I can't think of one legitimate example of someone falling for this "arm striking" other than other WC guys or my nephew i.e. inexperienced people. It just seems dumb to be honest with you. Distance feinting would even be far more effective and more useful for good timing. I don't know. I never once was told or thought that you fight with chi sao or even that you'll actually be able to redirect attacks. That wasn't the point. However, positioning, adjustment, and timing can be developed with contact redirection development with simultaneous striking. If one legitimately develops the body to respond to incoming force on a line of attack, it doesn't matter if contact is there in actual application because you've conditioned yourself to yes, "turn" and adjust and balance yourself to the opponent. I mean come on! That's fighting 101 and WC has an excellent drill to develop that.

Also, how in the h€ll can one develop contact free timing from striking arms!? You are literally giving away an entire beat to arms that aren't going to be there!

Have you met a wsl pb student ?

[Jansingsang]

Each to their own, however, I think you’re labouring under a misconception.

What this is really all about is the application of force and whether it is continuous and controlling (sticky) or ballistic and shocking.

You seem to have a preference for the former, which I would hazard a guess colours your opinions in general and your appreciation of timing in particular.

All arguments of whether there is bridging or tactile sensitivity involved is moot imo.

The basic thing to understand is that it is a continuum not a mutually exclusive scenario i.e. power moves from continuous to ballistic and both forms can be used in training and fighting, though sticky lends itself more to grappling technique.

It’s just a question of what you want to achieve - controlling the opponent’s cog or shocking it in order to produce involuntary responses as the WSL/PB lads advocate.

I’m with the WSL/PB crowd on this one.

2 cents back at ya...

Dave

Good post youv'e hit the nail on the head its a question of preference wither you like to control the opponent or ballisticate there arse The choice is yours Its great it can all be discussed .But i feel its becoming a bit nasty in some of the posts in regard to Sigung WSL Ok Yes too be fair Yip chun, Leung ting Ho Kam Ming Yep iam gulity of saying one or two things But we must stick to the facts and not speculate and slander those that can't respond for themselfs So Gentleman please some decorum is need for fair respectable debate

[WC1277]

No names , I did that before innocently with a Robert Chu student and the poor guy was suddenly a " low level " guy who trained once ; )

The point here is that HE said it to me ; ) he knew like I did , graham did and others who are introduced to the subtle shift in thinking. I didn't recruit him or try to change his mind , I just explained our thinking face to face.

Fine, whatever Kevin. It doesn't really matter anyways. It doesn't really change the fact that you train to "strike" arms. It's confirmed, your "subtle" shift in thinking is a self confirming prophecy!

Why doesn't anyone understand that Chi Sao isn't fighting! Yes, there are very "rare" instances where possibly you'll do something to a real opponent straight out of chi sao. But all in all, it's not reality. We argue in these forums 99% of the time about chi sao and proper DEVELOPMENT! But I just recently realized the contraindication of your "thinking" has nothing to do with development at all. You say Joy or others are living in a well, yet it's you PB boys that have actually changed sh!t to win at chi sao! And it's insane and detached from reality!

1: "Striking" arms is chasing. It is an active motion against a target that's not the body. It commits a point in time and quite frankly is ridiculous to train considering arms will not be sitting there for you in reality to "strike". Like I've said before, you treat the dummy as if it wasn't a human(correctly) but in turn you've essentially made a wooden dummy out of your training partner.

2. Chi Sao is NOT fighting. It's for DEVELOPING adjustment, position, and timing to incoming force on lines of attacks. It is developed with contact just as a father might hold the hand of his baby as it learns to walk. The baby can lean on it, push off of it, adjust his feet, etc. until it develops it's balance and overall upright walking structure in relation to it's environment. After that, the child doesn't need contact to do it. Chi Sao is no different. With touch, the force comes in and you learn to readjust to gain the line. That's it. Just a tool that teaches you the interaction of two people fighting and how to optimize your position, timing, distance, etc. in relation. If trained correctly, no contact is required after that to know how to adjust when someone tries to hit you. I swear, if more people looked at chi sao this way, the right way, WC might have a chance at surviving this butchering of ideas that so many do.

[Vajramusti]

But i feel its becoming a bit nasty in some of the posts in regard to Sigung WSL Ok Yes too be fair Yip chun, Leung ting Ho Kam Ming Yep iam gulity of saying one or two things But we must stick to the facts and not speculate and slander those that can't respond for themselfs So Gentleman please some decorum is need for fair respectable debate

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To the best of my knowledge I have never criticized WSL. I respect all those who spent quality time with Ip Man. I just deflect KG and Graham's attacks on my line. or claiming sole inheritance of WSL's POV..We should and can male our tones more civil.

[k gledhill]

Fine, whatever Kevin. It doesn't really matter anyways. It doesn't really change the fact that you train to "strike" arms. It's confirmed, your "subtle" shift in thinking is a self confirming prophecy!

Why doesn't anyone understand that Chi Sao isn't fighting! Yes, there are very "rare" instances where possibly you'll do something to a real opponent straight out of chi sao. But all in all, it's not reality. We argue in these forums 99% of the time about chi sao and proper DEVELOPMENT! But I just recently realized the contraindication of your "thinking" has nothing to do with development at all. You say Joy or others are living in a well, yet it's you PB boys that have actually changed sh!t to win at chi sao! And it's insane and detached from reality!

1: "Striking" arms is chasing. It is an active motion against a target that's not the body. It commits a point in time and quite frankly is ridiculous to train considering arms will not be sitting there for you in reality to "strike". Like I've said before, you treat the dummy as if it wasn't a human(correctly) but in turn you've essentially made a wooden dummy out of your training partner.

2. Chi Sao is NOT fighting. It's for DEVELOPING adjustment, position, and timing to incoming force on lines of attacks. It is developed with contact just as a father might hold the hand of his baby as it learns to walk. The baby can lean on it, push off of it, adjust his feet, etc. until it develops it's balance and overall upright walking structure in relation to it's environment. After that, the child doesn't need contact to do it. Chi Sao is no different. With touch, the force comes in and you learn to readjust to gain the line. That's it. Just a tool that teaches you the interaction of two people fighting and how to optimize your position, timing, distance, etc. in relation. If trained correctly, no contact is required after that to know how to adjust when someone tries to hit you. I swear, if more people looked at chi sao this way, the right way, WC might have a chance at surviving this butchering of ideas that so many do.

You're clueless.

[WC1277]

Good post youv'e hit the nail on the head its a question of preference wither you like to control the opponent or ballisticate there arse The choice is yours Its great it can all be discussed .But i feel its becoming a bit nasty in some of the posts in regard to Sigung WSL Ok Yes too be fair Yip chun, Leung ting Ho Kam Ming Yep iam gulity of saying one or two things But we must stick to the facts and not speculate and slander those that can't respond for themselfs So Gentleman please some decorum is need for fair respectable debate

A fair respectable debate? Kevin, Graham, and PB crowd destroy every respectable debate!! As far as WSL goes, I do respect him and I said that. Doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. PB, I could care less, the type of student attitudes he develops is embarrassing as evidenced by this forum and I have no qualms about responding in turn to them.

Others made some reasoned well thought out responses in this "respectable debate" and, well, you know, it ends how it always does...

[Ozzy Dave]

Involuntary responses from whom Dave?

Well the opponent of course. If the cog is moved abruptly it has a correlating effect on the cns, much like when you slip and catch yourself before falling over there is a pause, a break in movement as you clamp down and reassess your proprioception – it’s a natural response and it’s involuntary.

In essence the theory is that if you can repeatedly do that to someone they have a limited ability to respond as their timing will always be late and this is the reason otherwise skilful people look like muppets when drilling with the likes of PB.

No one is intentionally striking the arms, hitting the centre directly has a better effect obviously but if the arms are in the way you strike at the centre through them to create the gap both physically and temporally to get in a potential ko. For instance a well applied pak sao should unbalance the person you apply it on.

We all know ballistic force (faat geng) in general is developed on the dummy and exercised via chi sao in WC/WT/VT (hope I have all the acronyms) it’s a required attribute to applying the art and yes good structure can mitigate the effects but that’s the whole issue really, what do you want to concentrate on? For me developing my faat geng to be stronger than your structure is where it’s at and one of the reasons for the whole chi sao drill.

As for contact free timing, when someone hits you in earnest contact is provided whether you like it or not all you need to do is engage on an appropriate line, just like WSL said - easy to learn hard to master.

Dave

[LFJ]

If there is contact, there is always force (either yours or his). Whether a fight, sparring, a response drill like bong lap (or bong jut da, if you will).

I can't imagine a scenario where the opponent and I make contact, and neither is exhibiting any force, any momentum at all.

Okay, I'll give it one last shot. See if you understand the difference;

Responding to force would be like maintaining 'stick' in order to sense, conform, and change shape based on the opponent's energy left, right, up, down, forward, or backward, then find a weakness in there to strike. That to me is follow the leader, the definition of arm chasing.

Responding to position, on the other hand, would be knowing angles, attacking lines, etc. through bodily awareness and acting to cut into the most advantageous lines by way of interception, or application of force to disrupt the opponent's balance, structure, and facing while simultaneously striking them.

Just looking at the example of position recovery shown by WSL it may look the same from an outside perspective. But you would be erroneously assuming he is doing the former. If in that situation he doesn't immediately respond to recover the position, but tries to sense and conform to the opponent's energy, he'll be hit.

[LFJ]

In summary:

You guys arm chase. You try to manipulate the arms blocking your path in front of you by "striking" them. You arm chase and whether your dense mind can wrap around this concept or not. You arm chase!

I don't strike arms. I strike people. The elbow position and attacking angle allows for simultaneous dissipation (siu) of the opponent's attack while I hit them. That's the definition of 'lin siu daai da', "joining dissipation with striking".

I've analogized it before with a rimshot in percussion. That is the sound produced by simultaneously striking the rim and head of the drum with the stick, where the shaft is the arm and the bead is the fist.

My target is to hit the opponent with my fist. If there is no obstruction in the way, they just get hit. If a limb or attack is in the way, it gets intercepted and cut through as I hit.

I never just strike at an arm left, right, up or down, with exception of at times bong-sau to recover position, but it is joined also with an attack on the opponent.

Maybe you don't have LSDD in your system, but I don't see how you get arm chasing out of that when the target is always the head of the drum. Interception of the opponent's arm is an advantage of structure...

[Jansingsang]

A fair respectable debate? Kevin, Graham, and PB crowd destroy every respectable debate!! As far as WSL goes, I do respect him and I said that. Doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. PB, I could care less, the type of student attitudes he develops is embarrassing as evidenced by this forum and I have no qualms about responding in turn to them.

Others made some reasoned well thought out responses in this "respectable debate" and, well, you know, it ends how it always does...

Yes A fair respectable debate ... There you goe popping off at the mouth again Too be fair leave PB out of this ok it's only two individuals from his Stable. This should not reflect on the man Ive met him and he seems a humble individual and not arrogant in anyway So like i said it isnt fair when people slagg off people because of others short comings and youv'e never met him .. You seem too think theres this mob behind these guys you even includied myself Off course ill have agreements with the content of whats said at times iam of the lineage . But that dosn't mean i agree with the attitudes that are displayed We all need too listen and check people out, before we Speculate Which in my opinion is a dangerous thing Just my two pence in there

[GlennR]

Each to their own, however, I think you’re labouring under a misconception.

What this is really all about is the application of force and whether it is continuous and controlling (sticky) or ballistic and shocking.

You seem to have a preference for the former, which I would hazard a guess colours your opinions in general and your appreciation of timing in particular.

All arguments of whether there is bridging or tactile sensitivity involved is moot imo.

The basic thing to understand is that it is a continuum not a mutually exclusive scenario i.e. power moves from continuous to ballistic and both forms can be used in training and fighting, though sticky lends itself more to grappling technique.

It’s just a question of what you want to achieve - controlling the opponent’s cog or shocking it in order to produce involuntary responses as the WSL/PB lads advocate.

I’m with the WSL/PB crowd on this one.

2 cents back at ya...

Dave

G'day Dave............... nice post as usual

And maybe its just us practical no-nonsense Australians that pick up on what youve said in the above highlighted section..... its HOW you want to achieve the outcome (ie knocking the guy out) that differentiates the various lineages.

All of them adhere to WC principles, they just have a different take on them.

Ive said it before, Ali-Frazier were stylistically as opposed as you could get two boxers, but no one ever said that either of them didnt box.

Shame the WC-VT people cant think the same

[Graham H]

Too be fair leave PB out of this ok it's only two individuals from his Stable.

It's not actually. It may be only predominantly myself and Kev on this forum but there are others on other forums and indeed 100's in our lineage that have come from other lineages. If you look on the some European forums even PB himself.

It even rages on Facebook. Only recently there have been "arguments" between long term students (and his many students) that have now joined our lineage from William Cheung. The list goes on and on and on.............

This forum is only the tip of the ice berg.

The thing you (gen) don't notice is that behind the scenes from all these arguments and petty bickerings many people are making the change. IMO that's a good thing because no matter how much abuse is thrown at me and other PB students the more people that end up correcting their Ving Tsun the better that will be in the long run.

I myself used to be on your (gen) side of the fence arguing with PB students on this very forum until I went to see first hand. Haven't looked back.

So keep the arguing raging that's what I say........