WSL Ving Tsun - Sifu Cliff Au Yeung - Blindfold Gor Sau Training

[Graham H]

From my perspective kau sao performs a similar function to huen sao and each is a tool for the job in hand. Huen sao is the default choice if the direction of force is nice and horizontal as it allows the elbow to remain low giving cover and lining up the follow up strike however if the line of incoming force is angled upwards huen sao then becomes a battle and will not work as illustrated in the dummy form by the immovable arm of the dummy. In such circumstances kau sao still allows you to pass the force and re-angle. From experience it works exceptionally well against hooks to the body when you've moved slightly out of range / angled and the shot connects with the inside of your arm forearm to forearm. It prevents your arm from being dragged off of centre and allows you to turn the opponent using their own momentum.

Jesus effing christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The direction of force is "nice and horizontal"????????????????
It allows you to pass the force and re-angle????
Maybe you should spar against somebody who can punch mate! Honestly this is really really embarrassing for all Wing Chun!!!

[LFJ]

Never mind that these ideas of clearing the line and altering the line are actually shown by WSL in seminars, that the man maintains stick when he needs to, etc. Or the fact that even PB himself (gulp) uses bridges and redirects.

Maintaining stick is not the aim and only lasts a millisecond to redirect. One does not just remove a hand lest the opponent is trained to spring off that pressure and give it back.

But rather than looking to maintain stick in order to feel what energy is there and try to do something with it, the limb is just dealt with quickly in a safe manner. That in some cases means not removing the hand, as demonstrated by WSL, but the intention is not really to feel anything, just to stay safe while recovering position, clearing the way and capturing a superior line of attack on the opponent.

Using the correct form of shifting energy from the hip and elbow will deal with the opponent whether they are relaxed or tense. It's just worse for them if they are tense.

[BPWT]

Maintaining stick is not the aim and only lasts a millisecond to redirect. One does not just remove a hand lest the opponent is trained to spring off that pressure and give it back.

I would say it is not the aim (to maintain stick), if the way is free to strike. But if it is not..

But rather than looking to maintain stick in order to feel what energy is there and try to do something with it, the limb is just dealt with quickly in a safe manner. That in some cases means not removing the hand, as demonstrated by WSL, but the intention is not really to feel anything, just to stay safe while recovering position, clearing the way and capturing a superior line of attack on the opponent.

The process of contact and feeling is not reflective in that sense... you don't wait and 'try to do something with it'. Everything happens too fast. That speed is why the system has bridging tools. You make contact and then as the opponent moves/strikes/applies force or strength, the options you have are made for you - LLHS - LSJC.

Using the correct form of shifting energy from the hip and elbow will deal with the opponent whether they are relaxed or tense. It's just worse for them if they are tense.

Agreed. But if they are relaxed, what you do (based on what they gave you) will be different to what you do if they are tense (based on what they gave you). How do you know if they are relaxed or tense? Well, if you have bridged, all becomes clear - not via sight (necessarily), but via contact.

Lap Sao is a good indicator of this. If your elbow positioning is good, when you lap and they are relaxed, it clears their limb slightly to give you the line to attack; if you lap and they are tense, you move to create a new line of attack.

Basic stuff, based on bridging, elbow positioning and the responses you work on in chi sau.

[LoneTiger108]

From my perspective kau sao performs a similar function to huen sao and each is a tool for the job in hand.

The tyranny of words.

Honestly this is really really embarrassing for all Wing Chun!!!

I find this whole thread, and many others on here lately, totally embarrasing to be honest. Kinda makes me wonder why anyone in their right mind would even consider training in Wing Chun, let alone actually visiting a Sifu and giving it a go!

FWIW Huensau and Kausau, for me, have different objectives because the language itself tells us so, they are also different in nature. Huensau is a principle led method of movement, if not THE most important method to understand in your Wing Chun! Whereas Kausau is the term for an actual technique that is applied. You do not apply Huensau, you apply a technique within the Huensau rotation and that technique will have another term... make sense?

Now here is where it should sink in.

Kausau is to be viewed as being a part of Huensau, it is a technique within the Huensau method... as is Biusau, Jumsau, Jutsau etc the 'action' that distinguishes kausau is the 'latching'. In other words, when you apply Kausau the opponents arm will get trapped and unable to move in all but one direction, again a strategy to force a mistake. See? Nothing magical.

I dare say that ALL our techniques like this are designed to force the mistake, they have reactions that have been tested over time and we prepare for the follow-up of said reactions... hence the popularity of such training as Chisau and sayings as Loi Lo Hoi Sung, Lut Sau Jik Chong!!

[BPWT]

Jesus effing christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The direction of force is "nice and horizontal"????????????????
It allows you to pass the force and re-angle????
Maybe you should spar against somebody who can punch mate! Honestly this is really really embarrassing for all Wing Chun!!!

Graham, this is really simple stuff. Force comes in all shapes and sizes, and comes at you in all types of directions. This is the purpose of Chi Sau - to teach you how on contact, via the forward pressure you keep, you automatically handle the force and directions of force... from that initial point of contact.

[BPWT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuRwg...ature=youtu.be

Look at what happens around the 0:20 mark when Kevin tenses up.

PB has contact (has bridged), what do you see happen? Why?

Or at the beginning around the 0:04 mark. Kevin briefly gets tied up and does not recycle the hands. Why? What does PB do in response? Based on sight, or via understanding what's just happened via the bridging?

[BPWT]

I admit that PB lineage (indeed most WSL lineage) disengages more than most other Wing Chun lineages (and I am not saying that is wrong).

Duncan Leung made this point years ago when he reflected on Chi Sau'ing with WSL students in the days he (Duncan Leung) was having private lessons with Yip Man.

But watching clips of PB, he is often doing things his students say their lineage doesn't do.

[LFJ]

Lap Sao is a good indicator of this. If your elbow positioning is good, when you lap and they are relaxed, it clears their limb slightly to give you the line to attack; if you lap and they are tense, you move to create a new line of attack.

I guess if your energy is all in your wrists. Otherwise you will move their entire tense structure as a whole, quite like what PB was doing to Kevin at their seminar. His power was manipulating Kevin whether he was tense or not.

The more tense they are the easier they are to manipulate because they give you control of their center-of-mass through their tense limbs. Hip and elbow power and correct angles will allow you to rotate them out and move them in whatever which way. Energy up in the wrists won't give you that and you'll have to move around them like they are a wooden dummy. Unfortunately they won't just stand there for you.

[BPWT]

I guess if your energy is all in your wrists.

The energy is from the elbow. But you bridge with the Kiu (duh ) which is from the wrist to the elbow.

Otherwise you will move their entire tense structure as a whole, quite like what PB was doing to Kevin at their seminar. His power was manipulating Kevin whether he was tense or not.

Kinda. When Kevin was tense, his whole structure was moved, hence the need to keep stepping back. But when he was more relaxed, you can clearly see the only structural element that was manipulated was the arms.

In the first instance, PB moves with steps to create a new line of attack, in the second instance, PB needs to move less because his hand work was enough to create a new line.

The more tense they are the easier they are to manipulate because they give you control of their center-of-mass through their tense limbs.

How do you know their limbs are tense? Via contact, right? How can you tell via contact (contact is not visual in this sense)? Because at the moment you make contact with your forward pressure, you immediately feel and react.

Which is what PB is doing. Even though the PB students keep saying you don't want, in WSLPB lineage, to bridge and feel.

[Graham H]

This is the purpose of Chi Sau

No correction! It's your idea of Chi Sau wrongly shared by the likes of Ian and WC12047257289525925925205092

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuRwg...ature=youtu.be

Look at what happens around the 0:20 mark when Kevin tenses up.

PB has contact (has bridged), what do you see happen? Why?

Or at the beginning around the 0:04 mark. Kevin briefly gets tied up and does not recycle the hands. Why? What does PB do in response? Based on sight, or via understanding what's just happened via the bridging?

So you think we are fighting ?

[Graham H]

...answer me this B.....how can you possibly know what PB is doing and what his ideas are without being in front of him??? I find this really bizarre.

See I know and I also know you have no clue about what you are talking about. I think for those of us that have been in the same room as PB will agree with that 100%

I would have quit by now if I was you so fair play.

[BPWT]

No correction! It's your idea of Chi Sau wrongly shared by the likes of Ian and WC12047257289525925925205092

And yet... watching PB in these clips, and WSL in video footage from his seminars, supports this idea.

[Frost]

You know I used to think wing chun was one of the simpler chinese systems, no curved striking, only one fist shape, limited direct kicking, only 3 forms and only two of those really taught the system the third was what to do when things went pear shaped, Chi sao reinforced the principles of the first two forms, how to occupy the centreline and where my centreline should be in relation to my opponent, proper elbow position, how to use the lats and shoulder girdle to create a firm base and how to use coordinated body weight moving forward to create power, it taught you how to use forward pressure and what to do when said forward pressure was applied to you, to hit where there was a gap and to create a gap where there is non….simple direct and fairly easy to learn…whether it works or is any good is for another flame war but for gods sake 13 pages of this rubbish, why not simply show what you mean in a real fight so everyone can see it, not chi sao, not drills but in a real sparring of fighting match, with as much or as little protection as your version of wing chun feels is allowed otherwise this circular argument will go on for ever

[BPWT]

So you think we are fighting ?

Of course not. Where did I say that? You are running through a response drill. And in that drill PB is dominating because he is taking control of the lines of attack - which he can do via the initial bridge each time.

How else do you think he is able to take advantage of your tension? How do you think he knows you are tense or over committed or over-turned etc? How can he use the speed he uses?

The answers are staring you in the face.