WSL Ving Tsun - Sifu Cliff Au Yeung - Blindfold Gor Sau Training

[BPWT]

...answer me this B.....how can you possibly know what PB is doing and what his ideas are without being in front of him??? I find this really bizarre.

Okay, I will answer

Without being in front of him, I can't 'feel' it. And I am not inhabiting Kevin's body either.

How can I possibly know, then? Because I am watching what happens to Kevin. I can see him losing position, losing balance, etc, and I can watch and see how it came about.... By watching what PB is doing.

When Kevin is tense, you can see how PB responds to it.

But again I ask... how does PB know Kevin is tense?

I would have quit by now if I was you so fair play.

No need to quit when I can see what PB is doing in the clips, and see that he is:

1. Bridging
2. Redirecting
3. Working off of both the bridging and the redirecting

Easy as 1-2-3, for PB.

[k gledhill]

Graham, this is really simple stuff. Force comes in all shapes and sizes, and comes at you in all types of directions. This is the purpose of Chi Sau - to teach you how on contact, via the forward pressure you keep, you automatically handle the force and directions of force... from that initial point of contact.

Classic wrong focus of chi sao. : /

I don't want your arms to contact mine, grab mine, stop me with a block. I develop a striking base with ko power WITH a partner who is NOT trying to fight me in the drill.
Mobility of this ko power base needs to be worked with a partner meaning there is no contact of arms but we use each other for coordination of striking recycling along with the facing and maintaining attacking pressure. Imagine if you are pressure based contacting arms in chi sao and your partner steps in any direction away from you and then stands still for you to attack them again .... Will you try to engage the arms with a grabbing lop sao ? Over step and allow easy striking counters with NO arm contact intentions ? Lose balance when you do make any random contact with a striking resistance to you ? How much of that can you think about when fighting ?
Chi sao is an abstract bridge to fighting with both arms equally. Not one weak one strong. We have to have ko power and coordination of arms ( chi sao) we also add a lesser known aspect of chi sao , deliberate movement to create angling attacks and counters. ( chum kil ) our drills seen in the clip of me and pb are to create fighting conditioning mutually, he is coaching me under mental pressure of speed to react in certain spatial interception lines, not by contact. A fac sao or a punch is so fast with power our defense needs to be solid and not leaving the centerline to chase . We aren't seeking contact for feelings sake. We are adopting lines that naturally intercept SPEED AND POWER strikes. We also use each other to create opportunities to strike that means hitting OPEN GAPS not striking arms closing zones of attack. Learning NOT to make redundant over trapping grabbing arm pressure. The opposite of most people's ideas of chi sao.
To develop the speed and power of angles that maintain their integrity at fighting speed we use each other.
Chi sao isn't sensing it building strong elbow angles with Lin sil di da ideas NOBODY here is even addressing because their focus is on wrist contact feeling and control.


It's ironic that a drill translated as sticking hands is to rid US of the tendency to do just that when attacked ; ). When you grasp this subtle idea you will grow. Stay centered and hold natural intercepting lines of attack and defense,( elbow angle striking ) if contact is made simply follow it back to strike, when there is an opportunity to strike open defenses do so directly.

[k gledhill]

What Graham said, until you are in front of Philipp , who's speeds and use of force has to be experienced first hand ! ; ) you will never feel solid structure in ballistic shots. He is never there for you to feel or sense his arms. : ) tense , me ? Lmao !

[LFJ]

How do you know their limbs are tense? Via contact, right? How can you tell via contact (contact is not visual in this sense)? Because at the moment you make contact with your forward pressure, you immediately feel and react.

You kind of missed my point, which is that it doesn't matter. For example, the hyun-sau WSL demonstrated was done to recover from a bad position. That position is what is reacted to and why the action is done- not whatever kind of energy is felt.

The same action is applied. The extent of the effect it has on the opponent will change if they are tense or relaxed. It is only worse for themselves if they are tense. But we don't care. Our objective is to recover position and attack instantly, not feel and react.

Sensitivity doesn't matter if forward energy is maintained. Actions will come out regardless of what you feel or think so long as you understand facing, lines, angles, etc. as PB does so well. It is far more efficient and effective to fight the lines than to interpret the opponent's energies. Fighting happens too fast for that.

From an outside perspective it all looks the same. You are assuming what is happening within PB's being based on the way you've learned.

[BPWT]

Classic wrong focus of chi sao. : /

Again, that 'wrong focus' you talk about is actually present in what PB is doing.

I don't want your arms to contact mine.. etc etc etc... deliberate movement to create angling attacks and counters.

Kevin, you are just recycling the same old lines. I have read before what you say Chi Sao is in your lineage - what I am saying is that what you say and what you do in those clips, is not the same.

Our drills seen in the clip of me and pb are to create fighting conditioning mutually, he is coaching me under mental pressure of speed to react in certain spatial interception lines, not by contact.

Yet all of his coaching in that clip comes from him having read you via contact.

So I ask you too: How does PB know you are tense?

When you are tense he does not do the same thing to you that he does when you are more relaxed. He is not following the same rote attacks. One is supported by much more expansive stepping, the other by more condensed hand work. Can you really not see why?

We are adopting lines that naturally intercept SPEED AND POWER strikes. We also use each other to create opportunities to strike that means hitting OPEN GAPS not striking arms closing zones of attack.

Okay, so tell my why, in the clip you posted of you and PB, you never gain those lines? If you use each other to create opportunities (a mutually beneficial drill/exercise), how come you never have such an opportunity?

Why do you think PB always has the line? Why do you think that always comes after a bridge was created?

Why, at 0:04, did you not recycle the hands? What prevented it? What did PB do that allowed him to at that moment strike the open gap?

[BPWT]

You kind of missed my point, which is that it doesn't matter. For example, the hyun-sau WSL demonstrated was done to recover from a bad position. That position is what is reacted to and why the action is done- not whatever kind of energy is felt.

In that case, why did WSL demo this by still engaging his right hand? He could could have simply done what he did with his left hand. Why did he maintain contact with his right?

The same action is applied. The extent of the effect it has on the opponent will change if they are tense or relaxed. It is only worse for themselves if they are tense. But we don't care. Our objective is to recover position and attack instantly, not feel and react.

Whether the opponent is tense or relaxed directly relates to how they will be able to deal, or not deal, with your next movement. So you ought to care!

Like I said earlier - when Kevin was tense, PB needed to move his body and step. When Kevin was a little more relaxed, the need for this was negated - PB's hands could do the work and he could still keep position.

Sensitivity doesn't matter if forward energy is maintained. Actions will come out regardless of what you feel or think so long as you understand facing, lines, angles, etc.

This is not logical at all, I'm sorry. Tension or relaxation in the opponent, or strong force or weak force, or a slightly rising attack or a slightly sinking attack, etc, etc, are different things. You can't have a cookie-cutter response to whatever comes, as it means you are blindly following attacking lines which may not be viable lines of attack.

It is far more efficient and effective to fight the lines than to interpret the opponent's energies. Fighting happens too fast for that.

You don't interpret the opponent's energy in a thinking, pondering sense because, as you say, a fight happens too fast. The opponent's energy, once you have bridge, automatically determines the correct line you will use. This is why we stress the importance of elbow position - it supports what the arm is doing, whether striking or redirecting. The point is that the attacking lines are determined by position. Position, once a bridge is formed, is determined by that bridge.

Again, just watch the clip with PB and Kevin. It is apparent.

From an outside perspective it all looks the same. You are assuming what is happening within PB's being based on the way you've learned.

I am basing what I say here on two things:

1. What PB's students are saying/writing.
2. What I can see PB doing.

The two don't correlate.

[Graham H]

And yet... watching PB in these clips, and WSL in video footage from his seminars, supports this idea.

No it doesn't because you can't see the whole picture or have the opportunity to have it explained properly. PB also puts it into action which counts for a lot.

[k gledhill]

Again, that 'wrong focus' you talk about is actually present in what PB is doing.



Kevin, you are just recycling the same old lines. I have read before what you say Chi Sao is in your lineage - what I am saying is that what you say and what you do in those clips, is not the same.





Yet all of his coaching in that clip comes from him having read you via contact.

So I ask you too: How does PB know you are tense?




Okay, so tell my why, in the clip you posted of you and PB, you never gain those lines? If you use each other to create opportunities (a mutually beneficial drill/exercise), how come you never have such an opportunity?

Why do you think PB always has the line? Why do you think that always comes after a bridge was created?

Why, at 0:04, did you not recycle the hands? What prevented it? What did PB do that allowed him to at that moment strike the open gap?

You are doing what I also did until I understood. You are using the only logic process you have to make sense of the abstract nature of the drills.
Why am I still standing on my feet during the drill ? Did you see how many times he hit me ? With speed and power ? No ? You probably saw me after he did, trying to respond without any contact based intel ; ).
Which hand hits you with full force and speed in an exchange of interception or not. usually ? Wu sao, or rear hand, last time I checked is out of contact range ; ) how would you stop a guy hitting you if be grabbed you to hit with this rear hand out of contact ? Stand still and wait to use his grab on your wrist, block it while standing and turning to face the arm ? Move and adopt angles based on lead/ strong hand ? How would you train to react intuitively to this. Use a sensing arm method of trying to feel intentions ? Or move your arse based on natural awareness of spatial awareness through abstract combat methods ?

It takes literally a few seconds of exchanging to show the methods are like oil and water. One is contact based wrist force the other abstract use of slt acute elbow angles aimed at creating force faster and more often than the opponent can recycle and crete their force and defense.

[Graham H]

Okay, I will answer

Without being in front of him, I can't 'feel' it. And I am not inhabiting Kevin's body either.

How can I possibly know, then? Because I am watching what happens to Kevin. I can see him losing position, losing balance, etc, and I can watch and see how it came about.... By watching what PB is doing.

.

He would do the same to you BUT you would get an explanation and how it all fits into the system and how incorrect chi sau practice (mainly arm sticking) is so wrong. That is something you cannot see from video

[Graham H]

The two don't correlate.

No they don't because even for me and kev watching the videos is not the same and we are the ones stood in the room.

[BPWT]

Kevin, you are simply not answering the questions.

Why, in the clip you posted of you and PB, do you never gain those lines, if the drill is mutually beneficial - a cooperative practice to coach? All I see is you losing position, but never recovering it or taking it.

Why do you think that his attacking line always comes after a bridge was created?


Why, at 0:04, did you not recycle the hands? What prevented it? What did PB do that allowed him to at that moment strike the open gap?

[BPWT]

No they don't because even for me and kev watching the videos is not the same and we are the ones stood in the room.

Nonsense.

PB students say they don't want to bridge and redirect.
PB, in his clips, constantly redirects having first bridged.

PB students say they don't want to feel from a bridge.
PB, in the clip with Kevin, uses different responses dependent on whether Kevin was tense or relaxed (PB knew this by ESP?... no, it happened after contact was made)

[LFJ]

In that case, why did WSL demo this by still engaging his right hand? He could could have simply done what he did with his left hand. Why did he maintain contact with his right?

The hyun-sau rotates the opponent to give yourself a dominant position. If you just retract your right hand and punch with the left, you've done nothing to recover your position safely and will likely be hit by one hand or the other.

Still has nothing to do with feeling and is not looking to maintain contact for any reason other than recovering position safely. It lasts a millisecond. I would hardly call it maintaing contact. As soon as the mistake touches it must hyun quickly to recover. There's no time to feel and react to force left, right, up or down. Regardless of their energy, if you don't recover you'll be hit.

The point is that the attacking lines are determined by position. Position, once a bridge is formed, is determined by that bridge.

So, attacking lines are determined by position, not by feeling.

[BPWT]

tense , me ? Lmao !

You're saying you weren't tense during that drill?

[k gledhill]

Nonsense.

PB students say they don't want to bridge and redirect.
PB, in his clips, constantly redirects having first bridged.

PB students say they don't want to feel from a bridge.
PB, in the clip with Kevin, uses different responses dependent on whether Kevin was tense or relaxed (PB knew this by ESP?... no, it happened after contact was made)

We use equal lines of INTERCEPTION that meet from the same ideas not for contact to feel but interception. If contact is made there is a tactic guiding us to make actions based on the opponents counter reactions. But we / I don't need to feel your arms to take advantage of our combat idea. If we both make contact during chi sao its because we both made same interseption striking then we use each other on different reference levels, attacking weak plane and recovering to a strong plane of force. Iow how to recover a counter attack angle with both force in fists and balanced alignment like we would moving and fighting.
The EXCHANGE of arm position force means we aren't touching for sensitivity but for equal facing lines of two arms ( ambidextrous ability ). The redundant aspect of chi sao arms and our fighting is no equal arm contact. One lead one rear hand for fighting.
If your alignment in chi sao was bad or based in contact to feel an arm, it will also manifest itself on my lead man sao or asking hand , my rear hand is not within your contact to sense. Our tactics are simple and I will be revealing more than I care to with " enemies " ; ).