WSL Ving Tsun - Sifu Cliff Au Yeung - Blindfold Gor Sau Training

[BPWT]

If you just retract your right hand and punch with the left, you've done nothing to recover your position safely and will likely be hit by one hand or the other.

Yes, so in that instance WSL kept contact with his right hand. He maintained a bridge. Of course it was not for long - it didn't take him long to issue the next strike. The time the bridge remained is not important. What is important is that he maintained it for the time he needed it. During that time he was covered (with his shift and attack) against another strike.

So, attacking lines are determined by position, not by feeling.

Please read again. What I said was: "The point is that the attacking lines are determined by position. Position, once a bridge is formed, is determined by that bridge."

Feeling and the bridge - two sides of the same coin!

[k gledhill]

You're saying you weren't tense during that drill?

Of course I was !! Lmao , it's what speed and power suddenly shot at you does. He deliberately does this for demonstration and teaching. Humans ( me included ) overreact to sudden lines of attack. Feint a kick to the nuts , reaction. Feint a strike to a face and you get reaction of ? Does the guy turn and cover ? Use a windshield wiper block to his face ? What line becomes open to attack during these moments. Do you use feeling ? When you do punch the guy are you too far away , off balance ? Can you defend and attack with only one leading arm so his simple blocks don't stop both your arms from attacking ?
People don't chi sao you fighting. We develop spatial interception lines you can't see in a clip. Facing and x lines allows for a different approach to centerline fighting. Why a centerline besides a-b boxers also use ? Why do guys with fast hands give sticking hand fighters trouble ?

[BPWT]

Our tactics are simple and I will be revealing more than I care to with " enemies " ; ).

Okay, don't reveal all your secrets. But I am not your enemy... tension is your enemy.

But I notice that you typed a response, but didn't answer my questions.

[k gledhill]

Okay, don't reveal all your secrets. But I am not your enemy... tension is your enemy.

But I notice that you typed a response, but didn't answer my questions.

Because you did get an answer but can't process the logic based on your approach
Tension is " everyone's " enemy.

[BPWT]

Because you did get an answer but can't process the logic based on your approach

That's a cop-out, and I think you know it.

People don't chi sao you fighting. We develop spatial interception lines you can't see in a clip.

Well, I agree with this, but would say that you want to use the attributes from Chi Sao. And yes, the 'spatial interception lines', as you call them, are important.

That's why in LTWT we train Chi Sau and Lat Sau. (LT's Hong Kong-based Lat Sau, not the weird crap coming out of German WT).

The Lat Sau training is all about starting from non-contact, moving into bridging, moving back out and back in again as a situation unfolds and things happen.

Back in the 1970s LT wrote that learning Lat Sau from his system was higher level than Chi Sau (as it encompassed what you learned in Chi Sau, but put it into action in a more realistic setting - one where distances and the means to bridge varied more).

Anyways, I stand by what I've been saying.

I think the PB crowd has developed a series of Mantras to describe their system, but when I see clips of PB, he is often doing things that his students critique from other YM lineages.

[LFJ]

Yes, so in that instance WSL kept contact with his right hand. He maintained a bridge. Of course it was not for long - it didn't take him long to issue the next strike. The time the bridge remained is not important. What is important is that he maintained it for the time he needed it. During that time he was covered (with his shift and attack) against another strike.

What's your point? Were you not trying to say it has something to do with sensing the opponent's energy? I think I explained sufficiently how it doesn't.

Please read again. What I said was: "The point is that the attacking lines are determined by position. Position, once a bridge is formed, is determined by that bridge."

Feeling and the bridge - two sides of the same coin!

In the WSL example, the bridge was formed by the arms being crossed, inside to inside. That was the position. The attack line was determined by that position. Had nothing to do with feeling, as explained.

So what are you trying to say?

[k gledhill]

That's a cop-out, and I think you know it.



Well, I agree with this, but would say that you want to use the attributes from Chi Sao. And yes, the 'spatial interception lines', as you call them, are important.

That's why in LTWT we train Chi Sau and Lat Sau. (LT's Hong Kong-based Lat Sau, not the weird crap coming out of German WT).

The Lat Sau training is all about starting from non-contact, moving into bridging, moving back out and back in again as a situation unfolds and things happen.

Back in the 1970s LT wrote that learning Lat Sau from his system was higher level than Chi Sau (as it encompassed what you learned in Chi Sau, but put it into action in a more realistic setting - one where distances and the means to bridge varied more).

Anyways, I stand by what I've been saying.

I think the PB crowd has developed a series of Mantras to describe their system, but when I see clips of PB, he is often doing things that his students critique from other YM lineages.

It has to be face to face sadly. It is a fighting system not a typing method. ; )

[BPWT]

What's your point? Were you not trying to say it has something to do with sensing the opponent's energy? I think I explained sufficiently how it doesn't.

Simply put, you can't react to force if you are not in contact with it. (unless you want to rely purely on your eyes - which at close quarters and real speed, is not advisable).

I was talking earlier about how the WSL lineage tends to disengage more than other lineages once bridging is made... but you have to have engaged before you can disengage, right? It doesn't mean the WSL lineage doesn't look to bridge (as some keep saying).

My point is that WSL demonstrated maintaining a bridge, and I said why.

In the WSL example, the bridge was formed by the arms being crossed, inside to inside.

Yes.

That was the position.

Yes.

The attack line was determined by that position. Had nothing to do with feeling, as explained. So what are you trying to say?

But that's exactly it, **** it! You've just said it.

'The bridge was formed', that 'was the position', the 'line of attack was determined by that position.' As I said, the bridging is the feeling. The bridging (read: contact/feeling) determined the position and thus the options for attacking.

This clip was a seminar - there was no intent from the student to attack. There was no force from the student once the bridge was made. No reason for WSL to worry He was there to teach and explain.

But he still kept the bridge/contact/feeling for the time he needed to show an attack/counter.

Why? Because WING CHUN IS A BRIDGING ART

(and the reasons why can be seen not just in this clip, but also in PB's, and pretty much everyone else's).

[k gledhill]

Simply put, you can't react to force if you are not in contact with it. (unless you want to rely purely on your eyes - which at close quarters and real speed, is not advisable).

I was talking earlier about how the WSL lineage tends to disengage more than other lineages once bridging is made... but you have to have engaged before you can disengage, right? It doesn't mean the WSL lineage doesn't look to bridge (as some keep saying).

My point is that WSL demonstrated maintaining a bridge, and I said why.




Yes.



Yes.



But that's exactly it, **** it! You've just said it.

'The bridge was formed', that 'was the position', the 'line of attack was determined by that position.' As I said, the bridging is the feeling. The bridging (read: contact/feeling) determined the position and thus the options for attacking.

This clip was a seminar - there was no intent from the student to attack. There was no force from the student once the bridge was made. No reason for WSL to worry He was there to teach and explain.

But he still kept the bridge/contact/feeling for the time he needed to show an attack/counter.

Why? Because WING CHUN IS A BRIDGING ART

(and the reasons why can be seen not just in this clip, but also in PB's, and pretty much everyone else's).

Confusion is apparent ; )

[LFJ]

Simply put, you can't react to force if you are not in contact with it.

But it's not about reacting to force. Reacting to contact doesn't necessarily mean you're reacting to force, just position. You can't seem to wrap your head around this.

'The bridge was formed', that 'was the position', the 'line of attack was determined by that position.' As I said, the bridging is the feeling. The bridging (read: contact/feeling) determined the position and thus the options for attacking.

Are you equating 'feeling' a point of contact and reacting to the position you and the opponent are in with 'sensing' the opponent's energy and reacting to their force?

I understand how from the outside it may look the same and you can only understand it based on how you've learned, but it couldn't be more different.

[BPWT]

But it's not about reacting to force. Reacting to contact doesn't necessarily mean you're reacting to force, just position. You can't seem to wrap your head around this.

You are right, I can't get my head around it

If there is contact, there is always force (either yours or his). Whether a fight, sparring, a response drill like bong lap (or bong jut da, if you will).

I can't imagine a scenario where the opponent and I make contact, and neither is exhibiting any force, any momentum at all.

[Note: if any WT'ers are reading, I know you're thinking, 'But one of the first rules of LTWT is to give up your own force'. This would be a subject better suited to the 'Tension' thread Grumblegeezer started]

Thanks, LFJ, for taking the time to come back and respond. I might not agree with what you guys are saying, but it's always good to hear more.

But I think we've reached the circle-of-death with this subject.

(until Graham posts something to get my goat)

[Graham H]

Yes you are a douche bag!

[WC1277]

But it's not about reacting to force. Reacting to contact doesn't necessarily mean you're reacting to force, just position. You can't seem to wrap your head around this.



Are you equating 'feeling' a point of contact and reacting to the position you and the opponent are in with 'sensing' the opponent's energy and reacting to their force?

I understand how from the outside it may look the same and you can only understand it based on how you've learned, but it couldn't be more different.

In summary:

You guys arm chase. You try to manipulate the arms blocking your path in front of you by "striking" them. You arm chase and whether your dense mind can wrap around this concept or not. You arm chase!

My Opinion:

I've always tried to be open minded to other lineages and look at the big picture of what they're doing. I.e. positioning, distance, balance, etc within the WC context. You know, attributes. Every lineage has at least a few decent ones.

In contrary, however, despite my loathing of the PB crowds annoying robotic insistency, I still have not found the WSL/VT lineage impressive, really, in any way. To me, regardless of WC, they epitomize the training regimen of a desperate young zit faced kid trying desperately to be seen by the professionals in the gym. Being 'aggressive' in ALL of your drills does not mean anything to developing skill!

You guys don't understand timing for the life of you even though PB has decent timing, at least against you guys!

PB, in and of himself, is not impressive to me

WSL in action, in forms, and technique is not that impressive to me, although I do have respect for him.

Your rocking back and forth in poon sau is a joke and even further shows the ineptitude of timing with structure.

-------

While you guys go on pronouncing your arm chasing to the world, people "talk" about redirecting force because they're talking about chi sao. The development tool of WC. What you hard harded fellas don't seem to grasp is that what approaching it this way does, if correctly, is far more useful in developing attributes without contact, then you guys attacking arms!

Think about it numbskulls. If I always train to TRY to "redirect" as I attack, I will be in a much more balanced POSITION in a real fight even without contact. All legitimate fighting systems develop balancing to the opponent. Whether it's "side foward", "mirror facing", "footwork", etc. If you hit left, I hit right, you hit right, I hit left. You cross, I hit forward, I cross, you hit forward. Chi Sao is a DRILL!!!! If you want to develop your "one-armed" cr@p where you attack the opponents arms. By all means, but you're alone on that one, and don't be surprised when someone with actual skill knocks you out!

my two cents...

[k gledhill]

In summary:

You guys arm chase. You try to manipulate the arms blocking your path in front of you by "striking" them. You arm chase and whether your dense mind can wrap around this concept or not. You arm chase!

My Opinion:

I've always tried to be open minded to other lineages and look at the big picture of what they're doing. I.e. positioning, distance, balance, etc within the WC context. You know, attributes. Every lineage has at least a few decent ones.

In contrary, however, despite my loathing of the PB crowds annoying robotic insistency, I still have not found the WSL/VT lineage impressive, really, in any way. To me, regardless of WC, they epitomize the training regimen of a desperate young zit faced kid trying desperately to be seen by the professionals in the gym. Being 'aggressive' in ALL of your drills does not mean anything to developing skill!

You guys don't understand timing for the life of you even though PB has decent timing, at least against you guys!

PB, in and of himself, is not impressive to me

WSL in action, in forms, and technique is not that impressive to me, although I do have respect for him.

Your rocking back and forth in poon sau is a joke and even further shows the ineptitude of timing with structure.

-------

While you guys go on pronouncing your arm chasing to the world, people "talk" about redirecting force because they're talking about chi sao. The development tool of WC. What you hard harded fellas don't seem to grasp is that what approaching it this way does, if correctly, is far more useful in developing attributes without contact, then you guys attacking arms!

Think about it numbskulls. If I always train to TRY to "redirect" as I attack, I will be in a much more balanced POSITION in a real fight even without contact. All legitimate fighting systems develop balancing to the opponent. Whether it's "side foward", "mirror facing", "footwork", etc. If you hit left, I hit right, you hit right, I hit left. You cross, I hit forward, I cross, you hit forward. Chi Sao is a DRILL!!!! If you want to develop your "one-armed" cr@p where you attack the opponents arms. By all means, but you're alone on that one, and don't be surprised when someone with actual skill knocks you out!

my two cents...

Ummm I met a nine year student of your lineage who after exchanging and discussing agreed his previous nine Fong years were wasted. It took a few seconds to show him the wrong ideas he had been shown. His only concern was unlearning the previous nine years of muscle memory. ; ) he said this to me.

So nameless one, YOU are no different.

[WC1277]

Ummm I met a nine year student of your lineage who after exchanging and discussing agreed his previous nine Fong years were wasted. It took a few seconds to show him the wrong ideas he had been shown. His only concern was unlearning the previous nine years of muscle memory. ; ) he said this to me.

So nameless one, YOU are no different.

Oh Yes, that's right, the infamous now "9 year" student whom no one is aware of, at least not in Tucson, the hub of who actually trains legitimately with Fong Sifu. Why can't you place him Kevin? What's his story? His name? Please tell?