WSL Ving Tsun - Sifu Cliff Au Yeung - Blindfold Gor Sau Training

[BPWT]

No, that is a bridge crossed...

Okay. Good one.

[LFJ]

So landing a punch is having crossed a bridge, an open attacking line.

When you punch and it is blocked, that is an obstacle preventing you from crossing.

How can that obstacle be called a bridge? You can't cross. A bridge is something to facilitate crossing a river, not to impede your crossing.

You'd better seek an attacking line, not seek to find and even maintain an obstacle.

[Graham H]

Here is what DP says in his intro to describing the CK form.

CHAM KIU (“bridge seeking”)

Probably the easiest way to view the ‘Cham Kiu’ form is via the three distinct applications/interpretations of the ‘Bong Sau’ (“upper-arm deflection”) action, each section emphasising a different idea:

1st section – ‘Yi Bong’ (“shifting Bong”) which teaches the concept of “borrowing the opponent’s energy” to disperse/redirect an attack. It implies that contact already exists and this contact is then manipulated by ‘Bong/Lan Sau’ and stance shifting/pivoting to reposition for further attack.

2nd section – ‘Paau Bong’ (“throwing Bong”) which teaches the concept of “making contact” when the hands are not already in a favourable position. In other words, it is a literal introduction to the concept of ‘Cham Kiu’ (“bridge seeking/finding”). It also teaches the concepts and skills associated with offensive footwork (and by reversing the action, defensive footwork, specifically as it needs to be applied with ‘Bong Sau’ which, by its nature, requires a specialised action quite distinct from other techniques), kicking (‘Dang Geuk’ – “ascending kick”) and the idea of always “chasing one’s kicks” so that the opponent is constantly kept under threat, and recovery in the form of regaining the centre (‘Chau Kuen’ – “whipping punch” ) and refacing the centre (‘Yi Ying Sau’ – “recover shape/form hand”).

3rd section – ‘Dai Bong’ (“low-action Bong”) which provides a “two-in-one” interpretation of the ‘Bong Sau’ for protecting the lower gates, one for when attacked on a lower line while the hands are down, the other for controlling the balance/stance when dragged out of position. This section also introduces the concept of controlling the legs by controlling the arms, a variation on the basic kicking action (‘Waang Geuk’ –“horizontal kick”), and yet another application of recovery whereby the ‘Dan Sau’ (“springing hand”) action of the Siu Nim Tau form is applied to the punch to complete the form.

That is DP's thinking on Chum Kiu NOT PB's!!!!!!!!!!!

[Graham H]

So landing a punch is having crossed a bridge, an open attacking line.

When you punch and it is blocked, that is an obstacle preventing you from crossing.

How can that obstacle be called a bridge? You can't cross. A bridge is something to facilitate crossing a river, not to impede your crossing.

You'd better seek an attacking line, not seek to find and even maintain an obstacle.

No point in explaining to BPWT. He's got his head stuck so far up his azz he will bump his head on his tonsils before too long.

[Graham H]

Maybe you should also write to David Peterson, to explain his error. He, like PB, learned from WSL (DP, largely in Hong Kong, I believe...and in WSL's native language).

You believe and again are wrong!.................

Venues and languages mean nothing.

If you must try and use that as ammo, PB only spent just over 18 months in Hong Kong but he lived there. WSL spent much more time in Europe spanning 15 years.

[BPWT]

You believe and again are wrong!.................

Venues and languages mean nothing.

If you must try and use that as ammo, PB only spent just over 18 months in Hong Kong but he lived there. WSL spent much more time in Europe spanning 15 years.

I believe?

I think language actually means a lot - there is a reason for something being called what it is. But you can not believe that if you wish. Heck, learn the German for all of this if you wish.

How long someone spent in HK or not doesn't mean much to me either - the point I was making is that DP spent time with WSL.

So is DP wrong in his understanding?

[LFJ]

I think language actually means a lot - there is a reason for something being called what it is.

Yeah. Cham-kiu means 'bridge seeking' or 'seeking the bridge', but what that bridge is you've not understood. You've called an obstacle a bridge and don't even realize how little sense that makes.

[Graham H]

So is DP wrong in his understanding?

I never said he was wrong but if the two guys have different thinking on Ving Tsun.

The only way to find out how is to go and visit them like I did.

There is no doubt that they both spent time with WSL but the end result is very very different.

How can you talk about this without making one out to be good and one not? That is not the case at all and the only way you will ever understand that is to go and train with them. It's not possible to watch videos or post passages from books to understand it all

..................like I keep telling you!

[Graham H]

Yeah. Cham-kiu means 'bridge seeking' or 'seeking the bridge', but what that bridge is you've not understood. You've called an obstacle a bridge and don't even realize how little sense that makes.

Exactly!!!!

[LFJ]

I like how he added your quote to his signature presumably to ridicule you for not knowing anything. Ironic, isn't it? lol

[BPWT]

I never said he was wrong but if the two guys have different thinking on Ving Tsun. The only way to find out how is to go and visit them like I did. There is no doubt that they both spent time with WSL but the end result is very very different.

How can you talk about this without making one out to be good and one not? That is not the case at all and the only way you will ever understand that is to go and train with them. It's not possible to watch videos or post passages from books to understand it all

..................like I keep telling you!

This is such a double-standard. You don't want to say DP is wrong, you just say what he does is different, and that PB and have PD have "very, very different end results."

Which is fine, by the way. I couldn't care less about people doing things differently. It's what makes for discussion.

Yet... if someone outside of your lineage, say someone from Augustine Fong's lineage, does something different to you, you don't just call it different, you call it: wrong, clueless, misinterpreted, BS, etc etc.

So if I don't agree with your bridging concept, and if I talk about redirecting force once contact is made, for example, then I am wrong (and you say so, laced with idiotic insults), and LT is wrong and, etc, etc, etc.

But if DP, from WSL lineage talks about bong sau and says it has a element of “borrowing the opponent’s energy”... then what he is saying, even though you disagree with it, is according to you, "just different."

I think the truth, more likely, is that you follow PB and don't think anyone else (including others from WSL lineage) can have a valid opinion on what VT is, if it differs from you own.

It is blindness.

Heck, you don't even recognize that PB redirects with bong, pak, lap, etc. Why? Because someone has told you seemingly that that's not what WSLPBVT is about. So you parrot it.

I'm sorry, but you are wearing blinkers.

Kevin was good enough to post a clip of him and PB in New York recently, and even in that very short clip you can see the things I have been speaking about. And you can also see the various problems they caused.

Yet still, I must be wrong.

LFJ and Graham, Chum Kiu (as a form) has many, many things - but tell me how what you understand the word Kiu to mean - from a purely Wing Chun context, if you like.

We know that it means bridge, but please expand. I would like to hear your thoughts on this.


Ps. That last request, LFJ, is the reason why I added Graham's quote to my signature.

[LFJ]

Have you not been reading my past few posts where I did just that?

Post #279

Post #284

Post #289

[BPWT]

Have you not been reading my past few posts where I did just that?

Yes, I did read them - and thanks for posting the direct links.

Thinking of the bridge as the obstacle is part of it, I guess, but not all of it. The bridge is commonly used as a description for intercepting (in arts other and as well as Wing Chun), but again, that is not all of it!

You wrote: "So landing a punch is having crossed a bridge, an open attacking line."

This kind of makes sense, but I still think it is a play on words. Bridging is connecting - I don't agree that a bridge is an attacking line - a bridge is physical, it must involve contact. Attacking lines exist of course, but they are not the bridge.

That is why I am asking you to tell me what else you understand about the word Kiu.

You also wrote: "Yeah. Cham-kiu means 'bridge seeking' or 'seeking the bridge', but what that bridge is you've not understood."

Well, I think we both agree that we have a disagreement on the idea of bridging. Which is why I am asking you to tell me more about your understanding of the word Kiu itself.

[BPWT]

To add, I am asking this to clear up the misunderstanding of terms.

If Graham sees PB using bong, pak and lap, but doesn't see that as redirecting, then we should probably discuss a definition of redirecting, as well as the word Kiu.

[LFJ]

Well, first of all, kiu is not a verb. We don't do what you call 'bridging'.

The bridge is figurative. Trying to actually build a physical bridge between yourself and your opponent by connecting arms is creating obstacles for yourself- not a very smart fighting strategy...