WSL Ving Tsun - Sifu Cliff Au Yeung - Blindfold Gor Sau Training

[wingchunIan]

This is wrong thinking.

Of course it is. Because PB didn't tell you this is so in those exact words it doesn't fit with your mantra and therefore is incorrect. The rest of the fighting world is clearly wrong. A BJJ practitioner doesn't look for submissions they react to what they feel, a wrestler doesn't look for opportunities to throw they react to what they feel, a boxer or MT fighter at clinch range doesn't rely on seeing the next punch coming in they react to what they feel in terms of impact on either their body or their gloves. At distance you have to use your eyes to determine what is happening but at close range you can't possibly see everything, process the information and respond quickly enough.
When you throw a punch at someone and it gets stopped do you
a) stand there dumbfounded wondering what to do next
b) look carefully at your arm to determine what just happened before making a decision as to what to do next
c) ignore everything and follow a set sequence of moves X follows Y follows Z like a robot whatever the situation
d) react instinctively without thinking, such as switching hands, changing angles, removing the obstruction etc etc

If the answer is (d) then you are using sensitivity (basing your reaction on the tactile information received). In the split second of contact the first thing that tells you your punch has been stopped is the sensation from your arm. Understanding the correct / highest percentage response to such stimuli and reduction in the time taken to respond is either gained through years of experience of fighting and sparring or through sensitivity training or both.

[Graham H]

Of course it is. Because PB didn't tell you this is so in those exact words it doesn't fit with your mantra and therefore is incorrect. The rest of the fighting world is clearly wrong. A BJJ practitioner doesn't look for submissions they react to what they feel, a wrestler doesn't look for opportunities to throw they react to what they feel, a boxer or MT fighter at clinch range doesn't rely on seeing the next punch coming in they react to what they feel in terms of impact on either their body or their gloves. At distance you have to use your eyes to determine what is happening but at close range you can't possibly see everything, process the information and respond quickly enough.
When you throw a punch at someone and it gets stopped do you
a) stand there dumbfounded wondering what to do next
b) look carefully at your arm to determine what just happened before making a decision as to what to do next
c) ignore everything and follow a set sequence of moves X follows Y follows Z like a robot whatever the situation
d) react instinctively without thinking, such as switching hands, changing angles, removing the obstruction etc etc

If the answer is (d) then you are using sensitivity (basing your reaction on the tactile information received). In the split second of contact the first thing that tells you your punch has been stopped is the sensation from your arm. Understanding the correct / highest percentage response to such stimuli and reduction in the time taken to respond is either gained through years of experience of fighting and sparring or through sensitivity training or both.

Absolute nonsense. I think you live in the clouds Ian.

[Wayfaring]

Yep. You think if you are being attacked by a 19 stone drunk idiot you can "keep forward pressure" on him do you. Brave guy.

I think he was talking about stepping back with an angle step rather than straight back. With a large guy like that you better work angles and either get some continuous offense going or stay outside of range. I do agree that with a large size differential it's not going to be possible to keep in a stance and never take a backwards step.

[BPWT]

You can also step back at an angle and still keep forward pressure through the point of contact (and there should be a point of contact as this is where you met the force that was too strong for you to simply shift or step otherwise and so you had to angle back).

[k gledhill]

Of course it is. Because PB didn't tell you this is so in those exact words it doesn't fit with your mantra and therefore is incorrect. The rest of the fighting world is clearly wrong. A BJJ practitioner doesn't look for submissions they react to what they feel, a wrestler doesn't look for opportunities to throw they react to what they feel, a boxer or MT fighter at clinch range doesn't rely on seeing the next punch coming in they react to what they feel in terms of impact on either their body or their gloves. At distance you have to use your eyes to determine what is happening but at close range you can't possibly see everything, process the information and respond quickly enough.
When you throw a punch at someone and it gets stopped do you
a) stand there dumbfounded wondering what to do next
b) look carefully at your arm to determine what just happened before making a decision as to what to do next
c) ignore everything and follow a set sequence of moves X follows Y follows Z like a robot whatever the situation
d) react instinctively without thinking, such as switching hands, changing angles, removing the obstruction etc etc

If the answer is (d) then you are using sensitivity (basing your reaction on the tactile information received). In the split second of contact the first thing that tells you your punch has been stopped is the sensation from your arm. Understanding the correct / highest percentage response to such stimuli and reduction in the time taken to respond is either gained through years of experience of fighting and sparring or through sensitivity training or both.

Again wrong approach.

[LFJ]

Specifically, the teui-ma or 'pushed step' collapses backward on an angle which still allows forward pressure to be returned to the opponent via a new line on which they are weaker. It's therefore not truly a 'retreating' step.

This is one method of applying the 'loi lau' (when the opponent advances, you remain) principle in order to keep constant forward pressure as I've been discussing. When the opponent is caught on this bad line they'll often try to evade or retreat in order to recover. That's when 'heui sung' (when the opponent retreats, you chase center) comes in. LLHS = constant forward pressure.

If our centerline attack is met with obstruction, when that obstruction is removed this forward energy causes our attack to automatically continue to the target. That's LSJC. If this effect is not happening, the problem is with LLHS. You're stopping, hesitating, retracting, or retreating, but not applying constant forward pressure. LSJC is the result of LLHS. That's my interpretation in a nutshell.

[k gledhill]

Specifically, the teui-ma or 'pushed step' collapses backward on an angle which still allows forward pressure to be returned to the opponent via a new line on which they are weaker. It's therefore not truly a 'retreating' step.

This is one method of applying the 'loi lau' (when the opponent advances, you remain) principle in order to keep constant forward pressure as I've been discussing. When the opponent is caught on this bad line they'll often try to evade or retreat in order to recover. That's when 'heui sung' (when the opponent retreats, you chase center) comes in. LLHS = constant forward pressure.

If our centerline attack is met with obstruction, when that obstruction is removed this forward energy causes our attack to automatically continue to the target. That's LSJC. If this effect is not happening, the problem is with LLHS. You're stopping, hesitating, retracting, or retreating, but not applying constant forward pressure. LSJC is the result of LLHS. That's my interpretation in a nutshell.

Sometimes the abstract methods we use to develop are confused with 1:1 use. We ( vt ) USE EACH OTHER in abstract ways to strengthen ourselves for combat. You can't expect our pushing to be replicated so its " when you get pushed " what if the guy kicks you ? Are you going to let the kick push you ? I won't push you into toi ma either. ; )
Too much contact based drilling in abstractions causes a 1:1 idea.
In seung ma toi ma there are TWO roles being taken. Not all about being pushed back, who is stepping forwards ? How does the seung ma deal with an angle ? Why do I push you ? What leg do I push with , step back , forwards , how far to step ? Why ?

PB made us laugh when he mentioned the abstract nature of the dummy too. If it is a human we should put hair under the arm pits ; ) lmao ! But it isn't.

[Wayfaring]

PB made us laugh when he mentioned the abstract nature of the dummy too. If it is a human we should put hair under the arm pits ; ) lmao ! But it isn't.

VT anatomically correct dummies. The next craze.

[k gledhill]

VT anatomically correct dummies. The next craze.

Hah ! Why are the arms of the dummy not aimed at our heads ? Surely a direct arm down the center seems logical ? Why a low centered arm , happy to see us ? !

[BPWT]

Why a low centered arm , happy to see us ? !

Okay, that made me laugh

[LFJ]

I wasn't talking about a drill, k.

Teui-ma doesn't have to be from contact done as a result of an actual push by the opponent as in drill. It can be a means of evading a forward attack without 'retreating'. When advancing on an angle or moving laterally is not the best option, teui-ma can be used.

Employed against a kick it involves no contact at all. Timed just right it moves one off line causing the opponent to over-commit and lose balance, at which point an interception of their leg as it lowers to the floor can take them off their feet or critically disrupt their balance. It can be applied in a similar fashion as the dummy footwork. It just requires a bit of skill in range and timing.

[LFJ]

In that sense, Kev, the 'pushed' step is what is abstract. Describes the feeling of the step.

[k gledhill]

I wasn't talking about a drill, k.

Teui-ma doesn't have to be from contact done as a result of an actual push by the opponent as in drill. It can be a means of evading a forward attack without 'retreating'. When advancing on an angle or moving laterally is not the best option, teui-ma can be used.

Employed against a kick it involves no contact at all. Timed just right it moves one off line causing the opponent to over-commit and lose balance, at which point an interception of their leg as it lowers to the floor can take them off their feet or critically disrupt their balance. It can be applied in a similar fashion as the dummy footwork. It just requires a bit of skill in range and timing.

So seung ma depends on making contact to push like the drill ?

[LFJ]

What?

You're the one talking about contact and drilling. I never even mentioned seung-ma.

I don't know what you're on about now.

[WC1277]

Hah ! Why are the arms of the dummy not aimed at our heads ? Surely a direct arm down the center seems logical ? Why a low centered arm , happy to see us ? !

While your post is amusing and I must admit it made me smirk, an arm down the middle aimed at our heads is not logical.

The dummy arm placement is an abstract of a reversed triangle with the body core being the "point" of the triangle, i.e. your target, centerline. Even when you're making contact with just a lower and an upper or just an upper even while moving around it, if your footwork is correct, your upper structure still should be in a triangle "shape" position due to this arm positioning. One of the reasons I laugh when you argue with me about my point of balanced footwork with the upper body, in all the forms including the dummy, is because I don't think you see this abstract...