phoenix fists and other exotic hand shapes

[guy b.]

Why is it that other southern chinese MA like SPM, Bak Mei, Lung Ying, CLF make great use of things like phoenix, ginger and leopard fists as force multipliers to increase damage inflicted, while wing chun tends not to? Many of these fist shapes are in biu ji, but it is not given a great deal of emphasis in my experience, whereas in these other MA from the same area these shapes are taught from the start and there is a lot of emphasis on doing real damage to the opponent like hitting eyes, throats, temple, sternum.

I have a bit of SPM experience and always wondered about this. What do you think is the reason? Or do I just not have the real wing chun? I know wing chun does have the seal air seal blood formula that these others use, usually with a chop to the neck, but it just doesn't seem to be as nasty for some reason.

Thoughts?

[JPinAZ]

try the search function, there was a pretty lond discussion on this a while back.

FWIW, HFY WC uses phoenix eye, among other shapes, and are demonstrated in our SNT.

[WC1277]

Why is it that other southern chinese MA like SPM, Bak Mei, Lung Ying, CLF make great use of things like phoenix, ginger and leopard fists as force multipliers to increase damage inflicted, while wing chun tends not to? Many of these fist shapes are in biu ji, but it is not given a great deal of emphasis in my experience, whereas in these other MA from the same area these shapes are taught from the start and there is a lot of emphasis on doing real damage to the opponent like hitting eyes, throats, temple, sternum.

I have a bit of SPM experience and always wondered about this. What do you think is the reason? Or do I just not have the real wing chun? I know wing chun does have the seal air seal blood formula that these others use, usually with a chop to the neck, but it just doesn't seem to be as nasty for some reason.

Thoughts?

A lot of our 'old school' guys use a lot of those often. Predominately phoenix eye and ginger fist. One guy was really good at applying tiger's claw. It was incredibly painful. It's taught every now and then, just not emphasized.

[Vajramusti]

Why is it that other southern chinese MA like SPM, Bak Mei, Lung Ying, CLF make great use of things like phoenix, ginger and leopard fists as force multipliers to increase damage inflicted, while wing chun tends not to? Many of these fist shapes are in biu ji, but it is not given a great deal of emphasis in my experience, whereas in these other MA from the same area these shapes are taught from the start and there is a lot of emphasis on doing real damage to the opponent like hitting eyes, throats, temple, sternum.

I have a bit of SPM experience and always wondered about this. What do you think is the reason? Or do I just not have the real wing chun? I know wing chun does have the seal air seal blood formula that these others use, usually with a chop to the neck, but it just doesn't seem to be as nasty for some reason.

Thoughts?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Gradually developing "body unity" in wing chun takes time and not everyone has learned the biu gee or even the mook jong well. Shapes in SPM and wc may look similar but the powering systems are quite different.
SPM's master Ging Foon Mak''s phoenix and ginger work are exceptional. A friend of mine was a
Mak protege. Fong sifu's phoenix and ginger usage is scary wjen he cares to show it. Without well developed delivery systems the shapes by themselves may not be impressive.

[lance]

Why is it that other southern chinese MA like SPM, Bak Mei, Lung Ying, CLF make great use of things like phoenix, ginger and leopard fists as force multipliers to increase damage inflicted, while wing chun tends not to? Many of these fist shapes are in biu ji, but it is not given a great deal of emphasis in my experience, whereas in these other MA from the same area these shapes are taught from the start and there is a lot of emphasis on doing real damage to the opponent like hitting eyes, throats, temple, sternum.

I have a bit of SPM experience and always wondered about this. What do you think is the reason? Or do I just not have the real wing chun? I know wing chun does have the seal air seal blood formula that these others use, usually with a chop to the neck, but it just doesn't seem to be as nasty for some reason.

Thoughts?

guy b. wing chun does have their own version of cranes' beak , you remember when you do sil lum tao , after the double downward palm block , you would come up with a double cranes' beak where wing chuns' cranes' beak is different from the way Hung Gar does it . Wing Chun the thumbs are pressed against the index finger of either the right or left hand , and the hand is bent at the wrist like a cranes' beak , choy li fut does their cranes' beak like wing chun does but the way they use it is different way from hung gar . In wing chun , they use the cranes' beak to block or strike .

You already learned the forms so know you need to condition the hand striking techniques . You need those bags with the zipper and the holes on the corner area of the bag . These bag can be purchased at any martial arts supply store , anyway what you do is go to the supermarket and look for those dried beans .
Then you put it in the bag through , the zipper area . You can either hang the bag on the wall or just lay it on a table . What you do is you strike the bag , the beans you put inside of the bag will bust into powder , and that ' s the way it should be , technically what you ' re mainly is doing condiontioning your hands so that all those animals striking techniques you mentioned on your topic post will really inflict pain on your opponent . Instead of the opponent just standing not feeling your damages .

Some kung fu sifus would put those dit da jow and apply it on their hands to avoid their hands from being damaged or injured . You see nowdays people would condition and develop their bodies through weight training . Because once you hit your opponent you want the opponent to go down right ? Not standing up and still smiling at you . You already know the hand techniques and body mechanics , so now you work on conditioning , punch the wall bag , and strike the wall bag too . the eyes and throat is easy to injure . But what if the the opponents' stomach is conditioned , so you need to equal the power . Believe it or not the sil Lum Tao form you do it like the way you ' re doing tai chi , it ' ll circulate your own chi throughout your entire body . then you also need to condition your hand striking techniques . But you can also use the wooden dummy too , to condition your blocks and strikes . So any type of kung fu is not just learning self defense , fighting , is all about condtioning too . And philosophy too . When you train with a partner have him hold the bag , and regardless if you going to kick the bag or hit the bag when you strike practice your hand striking techniques , try and knock your partner off balance . If you can knock him off balance then you ' re progressing , if you can ' t knock your opponent off balance then you really need to keep on training .

[chaotic2k]

Why is it that other southern chinese MA like SPM, Bak Mei, Lung Ying, CLF make great use of things like phoenix, ginger and leopard fists as force multipliers to increase damage inflicted, while wing chun tends not to? Many of these fist shapes are in biu ji, but it is not given a great deal of emphasis in my experience, whereas in these other MA from the same area these shapes are taught from the start and there is a lot of emphasis on doing real damage to the opponent like hitting eyes, throats, temple, sternum.

I have a bit of SPM experience and always wondered about this. What do you think is the reason? Or do I just not have the real wing chun? I know wing chun does have the seal air seal blood formula that these others use, usually with a chop to the neck, but it just doesn't seem to be as nasty for some reason.

Thoughts?

what style of SPM did you do?

[Hendrik]

Yik kam Wck lineage 1850 basic technics

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/sc...heartscwcykwaa

[guy b.]

what style of SPM did you do?

it was chow gar

[Paul T England]

According to Lun Kai, when Ip Man left foshan he told his students that the Pheonix eye fist is the best technique. Lun Kai was very impressive hitting hit metal gym door a few years back.

One of my students did Goju Karate for 30 years, basic rule is don't use technique unless you can break boards or hit Makiwara with it.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Frost]

Why is it that other southern chinese MA like SPM, Bak Mei, Lung Ying, CLF make great use of things like phoenix, ginger and leopard fists as force multipliers to increase damage inflicted, while wing chun tends not to? Many of these fist shapes are in biu ji, but it is not given a great deal of emphasis in my experience, whereas in these other MA from the same area these shapes are taught from the start and there is a lot of emphasis on doing real damage to the opponent like hitting eyes, throats, temple, sternum.

I have a bit of SPM experience and always wondered about this. What do you think is the reason? Or do I just not have the real wing chun? I know wing chun does have the seal air seal blood formula that these others use, usually with a chop to the neck, but it just doesn't seem to be as nasty for some reason.

Thoughts?

Just as an aside lung ying does not make use of any other fist other than the normal closed fist when punching, the PE fist was taken out by Lam when he formulated the modern version of the style, this seems to have been for a few reasons: morality being one ( his family was very Buddhist and into preserving life) he also liked to spar and exchange skills a lot and that’s easier with the closed fist, my sifu also says lung ying uses the closed fist only when punching as its hard enough to master one hand as it is let alone several different versions

Those reasons might also apply to my Yip Man deemphasized the PE fist, as I have heard is is included in mainland versions

[chaotic2k]

Guy B..... How did you find studying chow gar compared to wing chun. What made u choose wing chun over it.... Did you learn to use Fung Ngau (phoniex) effectivley?

[Graham H]

Many of these fist shapes are in biu ji,

Really? Where?

[Graham H]

as I have heard is is included in mainland versions

Yes it is. I studied Foshan Wing Chun for a while.

[Frost]

Yes it is. I studied Foshan Wing Chun for a while.

i have seen it in a version of wing chun from vietnam as well, so it would appear either yip man took it out, or deemphasized it will most of his guys, seeing how it appears he changed wing chun a fair bit in hong kong its not unreasonable to thing he did this

[Graham H]

i have seen it in a version of wing chun from vietnam as well, so it would appear either yip man took it out, or deemphasized it will most of his guys, seeing how it appears he changed wing chun a fair bit in hong kong its not unreasonable to thing he did this

I'm not surprised he took it out. It's sh1t