Sanda/Sanshou

[David Jamieson]

they are basically interchangable at this point.

but:

sanshou is the official sport name for chinese kickboxing internationally.

sanda is what free form has been called in kungfu forever.
It's using the style you have learned in an unchoreographed way and using contact with an opponent who is doing same.

sanshou has a definite rule set, sanda rules are determined in the school by the teacher.

[cerebus]

When I first competed in it, back in the early '90s, the term used was Sanda. Eventually he term came to be Sanshou. Then it evolved that the old term Sanda was used for amateur and the new term Sanshou was for professional matches (don't know how they're being used now).

Both types of matches are conducted in rings, and sometimes just on standard padded floor mats. The matches held on the platform are simply referred to as "Lei Tai".

[WinterPalm]

The main difference in competitive form that I've seen is that San Shou is open mat and no knees...San Da is knees in a ring...aside from the translation.

[SAAMAG]

I just had a small convo about this in the wing chun thread....a short read on the american wushu site says that it was Sanda, but they changed it officially to Sanshou because it didn't sound as brutal or violent or something like that.

So Sanshou officially.

[cerebus]

The main difference in competitive form that I've seen is that San Shou is open mat and no knees...San Da is knees in a ring...aside from the translation.

Not necessarily. Many (in fact, most) Sanshou matches in the U.S. take place in a ring. The only thing that determines whether matches are in a ring or on open mats is simply what the tournament promoters have available to them. Same thing with whether or not knees are allowed. Sometimes they are, sometimes not.

I've fought in "San da" matches in Europe and "Lei Tai" matches here in the U.S. as well as having watched loads of San da, Sanshou and Lei Tai matches from all over. The rules are generally similar/ almost identical for San da and Sanshou. The Lei Tai matches sponsored by the USKSF and the IKSF are quite different though (small, open-finger gloves, face-cage headgear, no foot or shin pads allowed, knee and elbows strikes are allowed).

[GeneChing]

Sanshou was originally promoted by the IWuF as Sanshou. It kept that title for about 20 years (note that Sanshou as a sport is only 30 years old). Then there was this movement to change the name to Sanda. The reasoning was that shou means hand which implied more na (as in qinna) so it should be switched to da meaning hit. Sanda would contain ti da shuai (kick, punch, throw) but not na. Of course, the world was already 20 years into calling it sanshou, so the name change didn't go over so well. I remember having this conversation with Martha Burr, our former editor, about it. She had been on this campaign to teach America the word sanshou, so when they tried to change it, she was livid. Officially speaking, the IWuF uses Sanshou now. In casual conversation, many will use the term sanda. The two terms are really interchangeable at this point.

For more on this, check out 30 Years of Sanshou: A Conversation with Chinese National Champion Zhou Lizhong By Emilio Alpanseque in our 2010 January/February issue.

[lkfmdc]

for a while the IWUF was using SAN DA, now it's back to san SHOU? Well, it is the IWUF

[WinterPalm]

Not necessarily. Many (in fact, most) Sanshou matches in the U.S. take place in a ring. The only thing that determines whether matches are in a ring or on open mats is simply what the tournament promoters have available to them. Same thing with whether or not knees are allowed. Sometimes they are, sometimes not.

I've fought in "San da" matches in Europe and "Lei Tai" matches here in the U.S. as well as having watched loads of San da, Sanshou and Lei Tai matches from all over. The rules are generally similar/ almost identical for San da and Sanshou. The Lei Tai matches sponsored by the USKSF and the IKSF are quite different though (small, open-finger gloves, face-cage headgear, no foot or shin pads allowed, knee and elbows strikes are allowed).

Thanks for the clarification. That was my understanding of it...I guess it's just whatever the heck you want to call it then...

[MasterKiller]

MMA has pretty well failed the Chinese market just as badly as san shou/da has failed the American market.

Yeah, you don't get out much, huh?

http://www.artofwarfc.cn/

http://www.mmachina.com/

[B.Tunks]

It was (and still is) called sanda colloquially in China, before becoming officially known as sanshou at the amatuer level, but has always been officially known as sanda at the pro level (eg. Sanda Wang). Recently there has been some reversion to officially calling it sanda at the amatuer level. Even when it was 'officially' called sanshou, the name was not widely used below the provincial level, even though it was always promoted internationally as that.

[WinterPalm]

As an aside, what are the places in China worth looking into for visiting to train in Sanda?

[pazman]

Winter Palm,

I recommend you look into the Sports Universities, with the Beijing Sports University and the Wuhan Institute of Physical Education being good recommendations. These are the places where Sanda started, and you are likely to find the prices affordable.

There are a host of private schools and gyms, especially around Dengfeng, that say they offer Sanda but don't bother with these. The training is extremely sub-par and not worth your time. Tagou, in Dengfeng, is regarded as a very good school for Sanda, but I cannot recommend it for foreigners, due to the prices.

BIAS ALERT: I train the Wuhan sports school. The prices are fair, the training is good, the facilities...um, just so-so, the administrative people are easy to deal with. If you are looking for full-time training for a month or two, its not bad.

[pazman]

Oh, and on the Sanda vs Sanshou thing:

Sanda is the term most used but San Shou is used interchangeably by people in the know. Many students like to use the term San Shou because it sounds "nicer" and less brutal.

[SteveLau]

San Shou = Free Hand
San Da = Free Fighting

Sanshou is the technique used in Sanda. However here in the US the meaning has become interchangeable.

by xcakid


Yep, it is still true to me that Sanda refers to the form for Chinese martial art free fight.



David Jamieson they are basically interchangable at this point.

but:

sanshou is the official sport name for chinese kickboxing internationally.

sanda is what free form has been called in kungfu forever.
It's using the style you have learned in an unchoreographed way and using contact with an opponent who is doing same.

sanshou has a definite rule set, sanda rules are determined in the school by the teacher.

[SteveLau]

San Shou = Free Hand
San Da = Free Fighting

Sanshou is the technique used in Sanda. However here in the US the meaning has become interchangeable.

- xcakid


Yep, it is still true to me that Sanda refers to the form for Chinese martial art free fight training and contest. And Sanshou is the technique used.

sanshou is the official sport name for chinese kickboxing internationally.
sanshou has a definite rule set, sanda rules are determined in the school by the teacher.

- David Jamieson


I am not sure of that. Sometimes things will get confused after a while, when two terms are used interchangeably.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong