Sanda/Sanshou

[lkfmdc]

The Lei Tai stage comes from the "old days" and actualy no rules challenges. In one sense, it was "if you can't keep me from throwing you off this stage, what good are you as a fighter?"... more importantly, those old stages were pretty high off the ground and getting kicked, pushed or thrown off them meant serious injury

Think of it another way, say MMA, do you want to be run backward until you hit a wall or the side of the cage? The stage teaches good footwork and "ring control", now a ring or cage can do that also, but it wasn't a horrible idea in that sense, just an insurance, spectator and logistics nightmare as a sporting event

[Ray Pina]

I think, if it's honest with itself, eventually it will simply be absorbed into MMA.

I know it is often said that the Chinese didn't fight on the ground. But I can't help but think that if two men were engaged in mortal combat and one went down the other would capitalize on that and cut him with a blade, begin kicking him .... do something to take advantage of his position.

But let's say they didn't fight on the ground. People today fight on the ground. If you're going to compete to see how good of a fighter you are you are doing yourself an injustice to stop the fight once it goes down.

MMA is becoming very popular. How can a sport that fights with gear and many rules -- including no ground -- compete with one with practically no gear and no rules?

I believe this is why Cung Le is now going to MMA; to prove something to himself and to others. I also think this is why he has changed his training .... because it is less like sport than a fight to save your face and neck.

[Face2Fist]

The Lei Tai stage comes from the "old days" and actualy no rules challenges. In one sense, it was "if you can't keep me from throwing you off this stage, what good are you as a fighter?"... more importantly, those old stages were pretty high off the ground and getting kicked, pushed or thrown off them meant serious injury

Think of it another way, say MMA, do you want to be run backward until you hit a wall or the side of the cage? The stage teaches good footwork and "ring control", now a ring or cage can do that also, but it wasn't a horrible idea in that sense, just an insurance, spectator and logistics nightmare as a sporting event

that explains that lei tai. but the scoring is confusing as hell, you get pushed off twice you lose the match. that i dont get.

but i do understand the danger factor, falling from a 4 ft high ring can cause serious injury.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I've never heard of losing a match by being ejected from the ring. I've heard of losing a round through ejection, though.

csp

[lkfmdc]

One of Ray's points is something I've always said and agree with, ie that TODAY, in THIS COUNTRY, people ground fight. We have high school wrestlers and now we have BJJ and the UFC...

Who cares how people fought in China 1000 years ago if we're talking about functional fighting/self defense. A hundred years ago in Europe, self defense was learning to use your sword for personal duels of honor...

Today, the emphasis in ground fighting is on positional control and submission, which most CMA lacks. Like most things, we will see cycles, and what CMA ground fighting has, ie kicks from the floor, sweeps, and ways to get back on the feet, that will become more important and CMA can contribute to the "process".

What I will disagree with is the idea that San Da will be absorbed. Or the idea that MMA will become more popular

Popular as spectator entertainment, yes, but as participant sport, NO...

Which has more active particpants, pro boxing or amateur boxing?

IN the world of amateur boxing, what is the fastest growing segment? Ever heard of "white collar" boxing?

Reality is, people can see themselves wearing head gear and shin pads and doing San Da... most can not see themselves fighting no gear with elbows to the head on the ground..

As we speak, MMA is shooting inself in the foot, trying to kill off amateur competition.... Instead of seeing how the VERY SKILLED fighters in Japan got that way, and the public got to love a sport, they are doing the opposite. Kind of sad really...

And people wonder why the UFC has such a shallow talent pool!

[Sifu Darkfist]

This is a sport with rules for those that wish to participate.
Why not use a football for a hockey game?

Better yet lets take a baseball bat in the boxing ring.

My guys are strong and big and skilled enough to do mma but they want to be forced to go the length to take that beating and still come out on top as a well trained athlete. At the end of the day its all just a bunch of different sports that have different rules. choose one and play the game. Or make up your own, my hats off to you.

[Rockwood]

I am all for amateur, participatory sports. Screw pro sports, lets use all that money and energy to get people involved and participating!

About Lei Tai, I always gotta chime in. Lei Tai is schweet!!! Ropes are lame and lead to increased injury. If you go out of the ring, or off the stage, it's over, you lose. That's a fair fight for everybody, not an endurance contest or brain damaging punch out. It requires a lot more skill and you can't use the ropes as a way to escape or take advantage. I just think San Shou with Lei Tai is the most fun as a spectator, and although I've never competed in it, I like the rules when I'm messing around with friends.

All these ropes and cages and stuff make it too boring, keep it fast paced and fun, who needs ropes?

-Jess

[lkfmdc]

although I've never competed in it,

EXACTLY, and funny how people who love the Lei Tai are those who never had to deal with it....

[Rockwood]

Well shoot I don't wanna fall off the platform!! But I like the idea of no ropes and a delineated space, it doesn't have to be up high. I can fully understand if people don't want to use the stage, it would be scary as hell!

-JEss

[xaiolin]

im just saying that i think sanshou/sanda would be a lot better if it incorporated shiao chiao ground fighting.... lets be realistic, fights do end up on the ground. i do understand the concept of sanshou and its rules (ie, fight resets after someone is thrown on the ground); but it is probably time for sanshou/sanda to evolve. I feel that by incorporating shiao chiao, sanshou/sanda would be a big competitor for the major mma organizations.... not that this would be the main purpose (competition), but kung fu would be promoted as being greater than bjj, muay thai, and boxing.

[Wong Fei Hong]

just my 2 cents , like someone said , why should one complain about lack of kicks in boxing, same with saying why isnt there ground fighting in san shou.
Having said that, when i was talking with my teacher, he doesnt recognise san shou as free fighting to him, the sport san shou, as a term it makes sense to him, but as a sport he deems it to be something thats made up recently i think 91 if im not mistaken. Which doesnt actually have to be fought on a lei tai. It could be fought on a mat or in a ring

Whereas when he talks about sanda which is what he calls free fighting , he would deem ground fighting, and mixing various styles together fine.

[xaiolin]

just my 2 cents , like someone said , why should one complain about lack of kicks in boxing, same with saying why isnt there ground fighting in san shou.
Having said that, when i was talking with my teacher, he doesnt recognise san shou as free fighting to him, the sport san shou, as a term it makes sense to him, but as a sport he deems it to be something thats made up recently i think 91 if im not mistaken. Which doesnt actually have to be fought on a lei tai. It could be fought on a mat or in a ring

Whereas when he talks about sanda which is what he calls free fighting , he would deem ground fighting, and mixing various styles together fine.

are you saying that sanda incorporates ground fighting?

[lkfmdc]

but it is probably time for sanshou/sanda to evolve.

1. Why do you think that including groudn fighting in the competition "evolves" it?

2. Who are you to say such things?

LMFAO if you think that San Da is some bandwagon for Kung Fu people to be "bigger" than MMA..

San Da is what it is, whether you like it, whether you understand what it is (which you apparenlty do not)

It doesn't need to "evolve"... it is drawing many MMA people precisely because it is what it is. IE it makes them better at their stand up. Turn it into MMA and it is what they are already doing. And it would rapidly DE-generate or DE-volve...

Sadly, I hate to be rude, but let me be blunt, people who are not active in the fight world, aren't training to fight, don't know what is going on... you have "ideas" but your "ideas" are not connected to any reality...

[Wong Fei Hong]

more what im saying is sanda is free fighting so people who do shuai jiao could compete against people who do tai chi, its not something with a set of rules like san shou which is a sport.

But nowadays when people say sanda it is used to refer to the sport of san shou

So really in your school you can practise sanda and ground fight, nobody can say your not doing sanda, beyond that if you feel like entering a boxing competition or a mma competition , its simply a sport for the masses to view.

[Fu-Pow]

I agree San Shou should be stand-up only to maintain it's Chinese flavor.

Right, because CMA, in general, avoid going to the ground with the opponent.

But the concept behind Wrestling/Grappling (let's call it BJJ) is that you can use greater skill to overcome someone of greater strength by securing a more dominant position. At 165 lbs, I can often tap 205 lb guys at my same experience level.

Sure, some people muscle through it, but the same can be said for stand up.

Saying grappling is all about strength underscores your lack of ground fighting experience.

I feel that I am being misquoted me even if it was not your intention...at the very least misunderstood.

I did not state or intend that grappling is "all about strength." Obviously, all the factors that make good stand up, also make good ground.

What I'm trying to say is that prolonged contact allowed between fighters, stand up or ground OFTEN leads to a show of strength rather than skill (the more amateur, the more so). Or even more often it becomes a matter of sustained strength ....ie ....endurance.

In order to bring us closer to real combat in the CMA view (even though what we are talking about is "combat sport") superior grappling skill (ie clinch) in an encounter should be evident in a few seconds, not a few minutes. This is the speed at which technique must occur in order to be the most street combat effective.

Granted, a show of strength can also be demonstrated in minutes and not seconds but "on the average" limited contact will lead to more demonstrations of skill (Jin) and not strength (Li.)

This makes for better competition, realism, flavor and better sport to watch.