Sanda/Sanshou

[Face2Fist]

ring fighting, does serval of things,

1. test your skill level against other opponents
2. trains your reaction time
3. trains you to get hit and defend against others.
4. teaches you to become a better fighter
5. prepares you mentally for fighting

now that being said, if people who training in CMA, have a big hard on about about sports fighting dont do it and move on and just practice your style in the comforts of your own school.

as for MMA, SAN DA, BOXING and GRAPPLING being just sports, what you learn from these so call sports you can use in the streets

[Fu-Pow]

as for MMA, SAN DA, BOXING and GRAPPLING being just sports, what you learn from these so call sports you can use in the streets

There's a big BUT in that statement, and that is....what you learn in the ring may not translate very well to the street and may get you into serious trouble.

So MMA, SAN DA, BOXING and any other combat sport are....as one poster here put it, a "necessary evil." If you never engage in full speed contact then you never experience applying your skill under pressure....that is, until you get in a real fight.

However, if you do engage in combat sport, I believe that you have to "hold onto the the ring lightly." That is, be able to see the difference between combat and combat sport.

From my own experience I can say that my athleticism, understanding and skill level has increased immensely since we have introduced combat sport into our school (basically San Da without throws, because we don't have mats.)

However, I still train the techniques that I cannot use in combat sport because I know that ultimately those are the techniques that would more quickly and efficiently end a street confrontation.

[Face2Fist]

There's a big BUT in that statement, and that is....what you learn in the ring may not translate very well to the street and may get you into serious trouble.

So MMA, SAN DA, BOXING and any other combat sport are....as one poster here put it, a "necessary evil." If you never engage in full speed contact then you never experience applying your skill under pressure....that is, until you get in a real fight.

However, if you do engage in combat sport, I believe that you have to "hold onto the the ring lightly." That is, be able to see the difference between combat and combat sport.

From my own experience I can say that my athleticism, understanding and skill level has increased immensely since we have introduced combat sport into our school (basically San Da without throws, because we don't have mats.)

However, I still train the techniques that I cannot use in combat sport because I know that ultimately those are the techniques that would more quickly and efficiently end a street confrontation.

what you learn in class doesnt transilate well into the streets, in class you do drills, not the actual technique, your partner doesnt go at you full force. so how is that different from ring fighting? i think ring fighting is probably closer than drill training in a classroom.

in the ring especially in amature events, they come at you full swing ready to knock your head off. in class you have this safety factor, you go light and slow.

you can train the techniques in class, but you will never know if it will work unless you test them out .

[shog]

Full contact SanShou is composed of the following areas:

1. "Da" (Striking) use of fist, open hand, elbow, fingers, head.
2. "Ti" (Kicking) kicking, sweeping, kneeing, stomping.
3. "Shuai" (Throw) wrestling, throwing, takedowns.
4. "Na" (Seizing) joint locks and chokes, i.e. submissions

I suppose they are not setup to do throws, locks, or holds yet. Perhaps in the future.

The above 4 areas are found in most CMA systems. Note that submission holds or techniques are not strictly owned by those who practice Greco-Roman type wrestling or judo/jujutsu.

The Greek martial art of Pankration was ancient Greece's version of no-holds-barred competition and were among the first group to bring diverse fighting styles into the same competitive arena. First known Pankration events were recorded around 700 BC. Combat in ancient Greece took on several forms such as wrestling and boxing.

Now also happening in the world was the feudal era of Japan (most of asia for that matter)...

And from that, we find that in the beginning the practice of unarmed combat (Sengoku jujutsu)was called Nihon koryu jujutsu, which included the principles around striking, body throws, joint-lock throws, unbalance throws, pinning, strangulating, grappling, wrestling, weaponry, and sumo. Over time it evolved to include; more complex defensive tactics such as; blocking, evading, off balancing, blending and escaping.

Without ancient tradition, that is without the following of koryu practiced prior to the Togukawa period (1600-1870), then it is usually termed as Gendai jujutsu or modern jujutsu, from which judo and BJJ were born.

We also know that Okinawan Tui-te is derived from Chi' Na, just as Naha-te came from Chuan Fa.

Chin Na is a grappling art. Grappling is another word for wrestling. Unlike western wrestling, Chin Na focuses on joint manipulation. Chin Na is an integrated part of Lo Han Kung Fu. It was developed during the T'ang Dynasty by the Shaolin, and included Chin Na (joint locks), Shuai-Chiao (wrestling/throwing) and Chi Kung (internal energy).

Throughout time, the Shaolin found it necessary to develop methods of self-defense and combat. That is their arts evolved as needed based upon the demands or pressures of their culture. It wasn't wise to go to the ground, based up the fact that many times, a monk was outnumbered. Striking was preferred, and made logical combat sense.

The Chinese Martial Arts do indeed have grounded fighting, they just have a preference to not teach it, and or I suppose that for some unknown reason, most modern instructors ignore the actual ancient methods of fighting, which include grappling, throwing, striking, and kicks.

There is a time and a place for everything...



Just some lose thoughts...

[Fu-Pow]

what you learn in class doesnt transilate well into the streets, in class you do drills, not the actual technique, your partner doesnt go at you full force. so how is that different from ring fighting? i think ring fighting is probably closer than drill training in a classroom.

I think it depends on how you train drills. Yes, if you train them slow and with no power or realism then they will be ineffective when you need them. Sometimes you need to START OUT slow to get the mechanics correct (ie Taiji push hands.) If you train them fast and hard then that movement will be remembered by your body when you need it.

in the ring especially in amature events, they come at you full swing ready to knock your head off. in class you have this safety factor, you go light and slow.
you can train the techniques in class, but you will never know if it will work unless you test them out .

Well to take your logic on step ****her....the techniques used in a street fight can only be tested in a street fight. Otherwise how will you know the work?

To me combat sport is only another "drill", even though on some levels (ie speed and contact) it more comes closer to real combat. However, in terms of techniques used in real combat the "drills" that we use come much closer.

For example, in San Da we always punch with an closed fist, in drills of technique for the street we rarely use a fist at all. Advantage in street fight is that you don't break your hand on your opponents face with a fist......something that could definitely happen when, in the case of San Da, you are used to having hand wraps and a 16oz glove protecting it.

[Fu-Pow]

The Chinese Martial Arts do indeed have grounded fighting, they just have a preference to not teach it, and or I suppose that for some unknown reason, most modern instructors ignore the actual ancient methods of fighting, which include grappling, throwing, striking, and kicks.
.

Grappling has 2 facets, stand and ground. CMA emphasizes the first and pretty much ignores the second. I find it hard to believe that it was "lost" or just not taught. There are something like 300 styles of kung fu in China and very, very few of them have any ground fighting.

[shog]

There is the art of Shuai-chiao, which is "throwing horns".

However, they focus on the throw (versus submission) as does Modern Jujutsu, and Judo.

I suppose the reason that they focus on stand up grappling is based upon the premise that you will lose if you go on the ground, so strike so efficiently you won't, and learn the best standing (throwing, locking, manipulation) techniques to take someone down.

This concept is also called 'fast wrestling'...

It's odd that Japanese were more into throws, locks, takedowns, and ground fighting (Chikura Kurabe) than most of China was.

China seemed pulled toward striking with the hands and feet.

The exception to this is of course Mongolian Wrestling. MW has been rumored to be an ancestor of Sumo.

However Sumo seems concerned with the takedown or the standing/partial standing submit.



Just more reading. Thought I would pass on some thoughts.

[Fu-Pow]

The moment that ground fighting are introduced into Sanshou, you will never practice any:

1. Throwing skill (all you need is to grab your opponent on the waist and fall backward).
2. Throwing counters (why counter his throwing? you love to go down with him).
3. Throwing combo (all you need is one single technique, to hug him and allow him to fall on top of you and then surround your legs around his waist - I love a girl to do that to me).
4. Throwing resistance (why resist him? ground is your paradise).
5. Balance after throwing (balance has no meaning in ground game).

The throwing art will be disappear from the face of the earth when that happen.

Beside the above 5 concerns, there are:

6. Mobility (hit and run).
7. One against many (take care your opponent, his brothers, sisters, father, and mother at the same time).

which has nothing to do with Sanshou but has to do with combat in general.

You may gain "1" (the ground fight ability) but you will lose "7". Will that be a good trade off for CMA in general?

You may also help to popular the gay community but that will be entirely different subject.

Great technical points, I hadn't thought of those....nor the connection to the Village People.

[lkfmdc]

YouKnowWho and I have had our technical differences, and I'm still not sure his position on ground fighting in the larger scope of martial arts training... but in this case he has stumbled upon what I was saying before...

If you ONLY do MMA as your competition format, you lose much of your stand up... This is why my guys all do San Da first, and continue to do san Da even if they like MMA.

This is why MMA people are starting to do San Da, to develop their stand up.

[SanShou Guru]

It seems to me if you want to do San Shou with ground fighting then you just do MMA. Isn't that what it would be?

It's like saying why don't you make boxing more realistic by adding kicking, oh wait hasn't that been done?

get my point?

You want to do San Shou with ground fighting then enter an MMA event.

[Becca]

What I'm trying to say is that prolonged contact allowed between fighters, stand up or ground OFTEN leads to a show of strength rather than skill (the more amateur, the more so). Or even more often it becomes a matter of sustained strength ....ie ....endurance.

I agree with you 100%. When a fighter runs out of good, useable technique they often resort to brute strength. That, to me, is the biggest appeal to MMA in general and the UFC spacifically. Can a stand-up fighter keep the ground fighter from bringing him down? Can the ground fighter fight well if he can't bring his opponant down? This is what makes a good MMA fight. Not who can bash the other more, but who can figure out a way to win when the cards are stacked against them.

I am very much looking forward to UFC 56 Saturday. The fight scheduled between Matt Hughs and Joe Riggs will be an interesting one. Both are monsters, strength wise. Will they rely on strength once one starts loosing? Or will they rely on skill? I forsee Joe trying to use his strength punching power to overwelm Matt. I am interested if Matt will use his head and vast fighting experience, or if he will fall back on his wrestling. If Mat t uses skill and good technique, I believe he will win. But Joe will maul Matt badly if he tries to overpower or wrestle. It's all about the age. Matt is too old to fight a kid's game and win. But he has so very much experience, if he thinks his way though it, he can't loose.

My point, as relivent to this thread? How do you get to be exceptional at stand-up if you don't focus on stand up? San Da is a stand-up art. And a very good one, at that. A boxing coach can teach you to hit and move your head. A San Da teacher will teach you 100 tricks to keep a punch from landing and then use the momentum of his punch to strike back. A boxing coach will teach you how to take punches all day long and still be able to fight. A San Da teacher will teach you how to end it before that happens.

Judo will help you learn to get the other guy to the ground, but will not help you if you can't get them to the ground. What do you do if you can' get a successful shoot, throw or sweep? Keep trying all night?!? What happens if you can't land a solid punch? Do you keep trying the same thing that ain't working?

That's exactly what happens to one demensional fighters. But there are no one demensional fighters in San Da, or any other true CMA. Would gound skills help? Yes. But and a true CMAist hold his or her own in an MMA fight without it? Yep.

[Wong Fei Hong]

You know who, you hit the nail on the head with that post, looking at mma events ive seen people who come from a pure judo background , never use their throws.
I think the reason being as you said most people dont care how the fight gets to the ground, but that it gets there.

When judo was being created by jigoro kano, he invited different schools of jj to compete with him, and his students beat them all in competition,
Apart from Fusen-Ryu, fusen ryu would always go straight to the ground and lock up his students, in this light jigoro kano took the techniques of this style and had them incorporated into his kodokan judo. A few years on, the trend followed that all guys who were bigger would only use ground techniques not caring how they took the guy down. So jigoro kano eliminated how much time you could spend on the ground so as to turn judo into more of a stand up game.

Fusen ryu turned into kosen judo or high school / college style judo which is still very heavy on ground work, this is what maeda taught to gracie, and history is still being revisited with that **** ground game


Again i think though that if we look at shuai jiao or japanese jj, their throws, are intended to be practised on hard ground, and not for people to land so comfortably with a breakfall. So being on the recieveing end of a full force throw on hard ground would really mess you up. Ive been thrown on mats by someone who was in the nationals of our country and not only dont you know what direction the throw is coming from if you dont train judo, but when you land with a full force throw, you almost get winded.

Also a lot of the throws of nowadays judo , dont exist in competition anymore because they involved locking the body part during the take down which would end up in a broken body part. The same with shuai jiaos winding throws where you wrap your leg around the opponents during the throw.

[Stranger]

When judo was being created by jigoro kano, he invited different schools of jj to compete with him, and his students beat them all in competition,

There is more than a little debate as to whether Kano's team won this competition due to the superiority of judo over jujutsu or due to the superiority of Kano's jujutsu fighters (fighting under the Kodokan banner) over the opposing non-Kodokan jujutsu fighters.

[Face2Fist]

well said sanshou guru,

san shou with groundfighing is just MMA but with boxing gloves. but it will be funny to watch to grown men trying to submit one another with 14oz gloves.

IMO, is that alot of americans not aware of san shou, in the US muay thai and american kickboxing, and lately MMA are recognized. san shou has hasnt hit the mainstream yet. and alot of people that i have spoken to, dont understand the rules that well, you tell them, you can grab, throw, punch, kick, and knee and their first question is can you hit them on the ground or submit them. when you say no, they are so whats the point? and they say MMA is complete, which is true to an extent but lately all you see are guys going for the GNP, well in the UFC and KOTC, in japan their stand is decent to good.

[lkfmdc]

I explain it to my students and to anyone who asks this way....

In San Da, if you throw correctly, you are either standing up or on top...

1. Standing, you can make them stand up, or you can stomp and kick them, play soccer with their head

2. On top, well, there is your BJJ or Sambo, or Shooto top game. Try to strike or submit them or you can maybe still stand up.

If in San Da you are thrown, which every San Da fighter knows can happen, then you have to have the "bottom game" and learn not to get kicked, escape, get back on the feet, etc....

People are crtical of BJJ because it is often all ground, but if you do San Da this doesn't matter when you cross train BJJ... you will already know how the fight got there...

As for the quality in Japan, it is because they understand the need for amateur leagues and have set them up well... something the US is missing out on completely, in fact, US MMA is trying to get rid of amateur MMA..