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Thread: A different view on the muscles / strength topics

  1. #1

    A different view on the muscles / strength topics

    I heard an interesting point the other day. It wasn't the typical "don't do strength training because it'll slow you down"... rather, it made sense.

    It was more of an awareness comment which stated: "being strong can hinder your true potential as a martial artist because you may develop an over-reliance on strength rather than technique".

    I thought it was a valid critique. Maybe this is where the thought of strength training can slow you down came from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    I heard an interesting point the other day. It wasn't the typical "don't do strength training because it'll slow you down"... rather, it made sense.

    It was more of an awareness comment which stated: "being strong can hinder your true potential as a martial artist because you may develop an over-reliance on strength rather than technique".

    I thought it was a valid critique. Maybe this is where the thought of strength training can slow you down came from.
    Yes, that is the ONLY valid critique of over-emphasizing ST.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    I heard an interesting point the other day. It wasn't the typical "don't do strength training because it'll slow you down"... rather, it made sense.

    It was more of an awareness comment which stated: "being strong can hinder your true potential as a martial artist because you may develop an over-reliance on strength rather than technique".

    I thought it was a valid critique. Maybe this is where the thought of strength training can slow you down came from.
    That's pretty much my view on it.

    But it goes both ways, depending on the person.

    I've told some students to stop doing strength training because although they had strength, they didnt develop the coordination of that strength to be able to apply it quickly or effectively. Also, they didn't reach their full strength potential in usage, because they didn't know how to relax and coordinate/sequence their muscles. Which relates to the thread I started on elastic power storage, and also your post on use of waist in Mantis.

    Other students I've told to do strength training because clearly they were to weak to make use of their techniques. Others were too weak to be able to train their techniques.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    I heard an interesting point the other day. It wasn't the typical "don't do strength training because it'll slow you down"... rather, it made sense.

    It was more of an awareness comment which stated: "being strong can hinder your true potential as a martial artist because you may develop an over-reliance on strength rather than technique".

    I thought it was a valid critique. Maybe this is where the thought of strength training can slow you down came from.
    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...estside_wisdom
    Training MMA Fighters

    We do lots of sled pull work with UFC fighter Matt Brown – extra weight on the shoulders, up to a half-mile, sometimes ****her. This builds incredible strength in the glutes and hips, which is where punching power originates. It also builds cardiovascular and muscular endurance at the same time.

    The only barbell lifts he does are basically Zercher squats or sumo deadlifts. Sometimes we'll do straddle-leg good mornings (one leg out in front) which simulates single and double-leg takedowns.

    I have Matt carry a barrel – wrestlers have to get their hips to the opponent, and the only way to carry a 55 gallon barrel is to jam the hips up into it.

    Matt will also carry a 100-pound med ball in a wrestler's clinch for interval training. So he'll go 100 feet down, 100 feet back, perform a series of jumps, and then repeat.

    But one of the best exercises is the belt squat. Matt uses 365 pounds strapped around his waist and he'll walk with it on for five minute rounds – forward, backward, and to the side.

    This builds lateral power and has made him incredibly strong. In his last fight he broke his opponent's nose, jaw, and cheekbone – and we don't do anything for arms other than one-arm dumbbell pressing.

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
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    still with the westside love hey

  6. #6
    This is a good idea:
    But one of the best exercises is the belt squat. Matt uses 365 pounds strapped around his waist and he'll walk with it on for five minute rounds – forward, backward, and to the side.

  7. #7
    I'm never the biggest guy in the gym, so I always choose bigger guys to throw down with. In wrestling it was such an asset. Getting launched around the mat will teach you a lot!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    "being strong can hinder your true potential as a martial artist because you may develop an over-reliance on strength rather than technique".
    I have 3 different experience on this.

    - One of my senior SC brothers was my high school PE teacher. His arm muscle was so big that when he stood straight, his hands won't be able to touch his own legs. In wrestling, almost every my SC brothers could throw him.

    - One of my guys was very strong. He always used his muscle instead of technique. In 6 years, he didn't develop even a single dependable technique.

    - When I was in good shape, in jacket wrestling, nobody could break my jacket grips when I got hole on my opponent. My grips could take my opponent's offense skill away. When my opponent could not attack me, I could attack him whenever I wanted to. In a period of time, I used that strategy (force against force) so much my teacher said that I could develop some bad habit from it. He didn't like my strategy until he saw my strategy worked over and over infront of his eyes. Later on when someone said that somebody was a good MArtist, he would say, "Just let John to get hold on him and see if he can even move." He finally approved my method. Today if I look back, that strategy may work well in jacket wrestling. It may not work as well in no-jacket wrestling. If my opponent put grease on his body, there is no way that I can hold on him tight. It also won't work in Sanda/Sanshou environment. If I didn't depend on that strategy (force against force), I could force myself to develop more techniques instead back then. Strength can make people lazy in wrestling field and that's for sure.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-27-2013 at 02:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    If I didn't depend on that strategy (force against force), I could force myself to develop more techniques instead back then. Strength can make people lazy in wrestling field and that's for sure.
    This can happen from over-relying on any method, not just strength.

    I stopped using a jumping au-lau-choi attack when chasing down an opponent because it would always work. I wanted to force myself to use other skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    This can happen from over-relying on any method, not just strength.

    I stopped using a jumping au-lau-choi attack when chasing down an opponent because it would always work. I wanted to force myself to use other skills.
    This is why I no longer train jacket wrestling. If I train Sanda, I would have gloves on and I won't be able to grab. I do apply my grip strength on wrists control in no-jacket wrestling. It works pretty good too. My effort is not wasted after all.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-26-2013 at 08:07 PM.
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    Strength, like a football player, or a basketball player? A gymnast? All are built to the hilt, but not the same way.

    A couple of opinions on bulk strength for my needs.

    I'm not small, used to be bigger. As you get older, it all turns to mush in 2 weeks if you let it. The bulk you built becomes a liability and you have to find ways to keep skill (strength is part) and dump the extra bulk. Lean out. Phase of life thing. Take my advice, try to avoid the 'fat' stage if you can. Its like smoking, a real effort to correct, some folks just can't.

    If you strike weak points well, you should have way power than you need if you're at an advanced level. Trading it off for speed is effective. The elbow becomes your friend...

    High rep, low weight works best for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yum Cha View Post
    High rep, low weight works best for me.
    I have always believed in strength. Every tournaments that I had competed, I knew that I might be the strongest guy in the whole competation hall. Until oneday I asked my senior SC brother, the one that I respect the most, David C. K. Lin, "How much time do you spend on weight training?" He said, "Not much."

    David had developed much more techniques than I do. When he wrestled with his opponent, he could just make himself a bit better than his opponent so his opponent won't feel embarrassed. He told me this way, his opponent would never be able to figure out his true ability. He can easily beat his opponent in next tournament if they meet again. He has developed such a wide range of techniques that he has freedown to just pick and choose. When I sweat my ass off working on my weight, by using the same amount time, David takes easy and develop new skill. I truly don't know which approach is better if you ask me today.

    We all know that "train smart, not train hard." Is "weight training" just train hard? Can we use the weight training time to develop new combat skill and get better result. I will never know that in this life time of mine. If I'll live my life all over again, I'll definitely want to try David C. K. Lin's approach by spending more time in combat skill development than strength development.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-26-2013 at 10:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We all know that "train smart, not train hard." Is "weight training" just train hard? Can we use the weight training time to develop new combat skill and get better result.
    I have the students work on skill first.

    Most aren't able to use their existing strength effectively.

    When they can do that, then we talk about increasing strength.

    If they just want strength, then they don't need to learn from me. They can get strong on their own.

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    Reminds me of guys that build hotrods. Some put a huge motor in the car, but they don't do the suspension work to be able to make use of the power. So all the horsepower just goes up in tire smoke.

  15. #15
    There is nothing wrong with relying on strength if you are strong, just as there is nothing wrong with relying on technique if you are less strong.

    But a balanced person would seek to develop both.

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