wing chun bong sau and the ykt layer 5

[Hendrik]

for who is interested only


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLJaAZDUPeo

[k gledhill]

You're assigning many things to bong sao. One is an error of forwards force , this is easily countered,

[Hendrik]

1. The definition of bong I present is the traditional common denominator of older Wck lineages such as snake crane wing chun, traditional Guanzhou Wck....etc

Bong has to have both spiral and forward or drilling in force. And the three types of power generation support the bong. Those are ancient wck definition.


2. Could you please describe further what do you mean by
one is an error of forwards force, this is easily counter?

You're assigning many things to bong sao. One is an error of forwards force , this is easily countered,

[k gledhill]

Spiral sounds better and forward so the force moves sideways off center. If you push bong forwards to the center alone its easy to push downwards.

[Hendrik]

Agree!
it is a spiral forward or drill in .
Must not push bong forward.

Spiral sounds better and forward so the force moves sideways off center. If you push bong forwards to the center alone its easy to push downwards.

[WC1277]

for who is interested only


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLJaAZDUPeo

Hendrik, interesting video.

However, while the "spiral" bong is the most correct with regards to motion, bong can be used in many different ways depending on your positioning. For instance, low bong works by capturing the center by rotating your body towards the opponents center(think kwan sau), no spiral.

A regular bong, however, does work off of a spiraling motion but how the body readjusts to it depends on the point of the incoming force. To understand I must first describe a good bong sau:

In Tan position, imagine you have a small ball resting on it.(btw our tan is flat and you might understand why after this). A good Bong rotates the hand around this imaginary ball without the wrist coming off center. So, essentially, you're rolling up around this ball(360) and completing your bong with a slight downward movement. If you don't have a slight downward movement you will drive the opponents arm into your face instead of "cutting" into it. If you understand this, you can see that as you come back down to tan and follow the motion of the ball, the tan becomes flat with a slight twist. That's the "cutting" motion of the tan.

So, anyway. Depending on the point of the force, the point at which you're around that "ball" dictates how your body will react to support it. If you're rotation around this ball has not yet reached the top portion, as the force comes in, your body must turn with the force to complete the bong. If it has reached at least the top portion, then you can complete the "spiraling", so to speak, with or without turning. Obviously, good timing will dictate how you intercept the force with regards to the bong.

btw, depending on the "big picture" rotation of your body, bong can be used reversed.

Also, I don't agree with bong shooting forward from that position you do in the video when force is removed. While there is forward motion as the bong completes it's downward movement, it would not be structurally or rotationally sound to shoot forward without "sinking" the elbow with a whipping motion.(think lop sau drill)

[Hendrik]

Thanks for your comment.

The definition of bong in the YouTube is based in older Wck lineages as I have mention above.

As k has brought up bong without spiral in is trouble.

The presentation here goes beyond the structure , but deeper into force change and momentum. The force can show up at the contact point without has move to the limbs much. The key is have one develop the snake body Jin issuing. It is a force line and momentum game and not a limbs technics game.

Hendrik, interesting video.

However, while the "spiral" bong is the most correct with regards to motion, bong can be used in many different ways depending on your positioning. For instance, low bong works by capturing the center by rotating your body towards the opponents center(think kwan sau), no spiral.

A regular bong, however, does work off of a spiraling motion but how the body readjusts to it depends on the point of the incoming force. To understand I must first describe a good bong sau:

In Tan position, imagine you have a small ball resting on it.(btw our tan is flat and you might understand why after this). A good Bong rotates the hand around this imaginary ball without the wrist coming off center. So, essentially, you're rolling up around this ball(360) and completing your bong with a slight downward movement. If you don't have a slight downward movement you will drive the opponents arm into your face instead of "cutting" into it. If you understand this, you can see that as you come back down to tan and follow the motion of the ball, the tan becomes flat with a slight twist. That's the "cutting" motion of the tan.

So, anyway. Depending on the point of the force, the point at which you're around that "ball" dictates how your body will react to support it. If you're rotation around this ball has not yet reached the top portion, as the force comes in, your body must turn with the force to complete the bong. If it has reached at least the top portion, then you can complete the "spiraling", so to speak, with or without turning. Obviously, good timing will dictate how you intercept the force with regards to the bong.

btw, depending on the "big picture" rotation of your body, bong can be used reversed.

Also, I don't agree with bong shooting forward from that position you do in the video when force is removed. While there is forward motion as the bong completes it's downward movement, it would not be structurally or rotationally sound to shoot forward without "sinking" the elbow with a whipping motion.(think lop sau drill)

[WC1277]

.....It is a force line and momentum game and not a limbs technics game.

I just noticed you edited your post to include this sentence. I completely disagree with that statement. Using force momentum with Bong by itself is a good way to get a fist in your face. If your arm is lopped, that's one thing but even then depends how you were lopped. In a real situation, probably not going to happen, so using bong momentum is a bad habit.

[Hendrik]

What you think is not what I mean on momentum or 勢 and force changes or Jin 勁。 your post here shows your not understand momentum and Jin play .

I just noticed you edited your post to include this sentence. I completely disagree with that statement.


Using force momentum with Bong by itself is a good way to get a fist in your face.

If your arm is lopped, that's one thing but even then depends how you were lopped. In a real situation, probably not going to happen, so using bong momentum is a bad habit.

[k gledhill]

What you think is not what I mean on momentum or 勢 and force changes or Jin 勁。 your post here shows your not understand momentum and Jin play .

Wc.... Has odd ideas for bong. Usually attributed to chi sao ideas.

[Hendrik]

IMHO,

Playing with chi sau only without taking momentum and force impact at least in sparing will not know the game of momentum and force line.

Very rare people do full bong sau as in chi sau or drill practice in sparring or fighting. One inject force line and evoke momentum as need or call for at contact point instead of showing a bong has to be done this way or that way. Otherwise, it is just limbs or chasing hand game which i doubt is useful.

Wc.... Has odd ideas for bong. Usually attributed to chi sao ideas.

[WC1277]

IMHO,

Playing with chi sau only without taking momentum and force impact at least in sparing will not know the game of momentum and force line.

Very rare people do full bong sau as in chi sau or drill practice in sparring or fighting. One inject force line and evoke momentum as need or call for at contact point instead of showing a bong has to be done this way or that way. Otherwise, it is just limbs or chasing hand game which i doubt is useful.

I was describing the motion and the body adjustment of Bong sau no different than you were trying to Hendrik. Relational. I only used the word "lop" because people understand that. But my attempted description of the Bong "motion" with relation to body adjustment has nothing to do with chi sau. Like I said there are "multiple" ways to apply bong, but there are specific ways that the body needs to adjust to it. No chasing, connecting to the center of gravity correctly, even if for a millisecond, is the consequence of proper adjustment. It is one thing to blast through someone, it's a whole nother thing to blast through someone and have good positioning for your continued attack.

[Hendrik]

Undertood.

Thanks!

I was describing the motion and the body adjustment of Bong sau no different than you were trying to Hendrik. Relational. I only used the word "lop" because people understand that. But my attempted description of the Bong "motion" with relation to body adjustment has nothing to do with chi sau. Like I said there are "multiple" ways to apply bong, but there are specific ways that the body needs to adjust to it. No chasing, connecting to the center of gravity correctly, even if for a millisecond, is the consequence of proper adjustment. It is one thing to blast through someone, it's a whole nother thing to blast through someone and have good positioning for your continued attack.