Boxing vs. TCMA

[YouKnowWho]

This issue has bothered me lately. In longfist, I spend a lot of training time to repeat the drill as showing in the folllowing picture. It's just a simple "cross" but done in a low bow-arrow stance.

http://imageshack.us/a/img571/3836/punchz.jpg

All my life, I have never be able to punch my opponent like this (low bow-arrow stance). If I still train this drill today, I have to ask myself an honest question. If I have never used this move in combat, and also I may never use this in combat for the rest of my life, why am I wasting my training time to train this move for?

I can see that the low bow-arrow stance is good to build up the foundation such as "leg strength". But trying to build up "foundation" when I have reached to my medicare age just make no sense IMO. Why the "cross" used in higher stance doesn't exist in both longfist and praying mantis system? In other words, why the "boxing combat posture" doesn't exist in the forms of some TCMA systems? Did the ancient form creators ever fight? The more that I think about this, the less that I have respect to the ancient form creators.

Many people when they have reached to their medicare age, they may only care about "health" and not "combat". The older that I'm, the more that I can't afford to waste my training time on useless stuff.

[-N-]

All my life, I have never be able to punch my opponent like this (low bow-arrow stance). If I still train this drill today, I have to ask myself an honest question. If I have never used this move in combat, and also I may never use this in combat for the rest of my life, why am I wasting my training time to train this move for?

I can see that the low bow-arrow stance is good to build up the foundation such as "leg strength". But trying to build up "foundation" when I have reached to my medicare age just make no sense IMO. Why the "cross" used in higher stance doesn't exist in both longfist and praying mantis system? In other words, why the "boxing combat posture" doesn't exist in the forms of some TCMA systems?

Are you trying to ask a rhetorical question?

Why would someone waste their time on doing deadlifts or squats if they are never going to hit their opponent with one?

Form is not fighting. But it does document the body mechanics and range of motion for generating power.

Training involves working to an extreme to develop ability. In actual usage, it will be easy when you don't need to go as far. If you can do long deep bow stance cross quickly and with agility, you can have the range of motion and coordination to run down your opponent with momentum. Most people don't put it together that way though.

In the other discussion about using momentum... the cross followup from the jump roundhouse is basically your deep bow stance cross done in fighting context, instead of mechanically like a beginner does a form.

Praying Mantis has cross in high stance. You just might not see it in form. Actually you will see single goose exits formation done in high stance in form.

[-N-]

This issue has bothered me lately. In longfist, I spend a lot of training time to repeat the drill as showing in the folllowing picture. It's just a simple "cross" but done in a low bow-arrow stance.

http://imageshack.us/a/img571/3836/punchz.jpg

All my life, I have never be able to punch my opponent like this (low bow-arrow stance).

How do you train this technique specifically?

Statically and by yourself? Doing as a line drill and stepping with each punch?

That is the beginner way just for learning the basic idea.

I pair up students and make them punch each other.

Start them far enough apart so that the attacker has to take a big lunge step to reach and torque the punch in.

This makes the student develop nontelegraphic explosive footwork with good range of motion. This is what it take to overrun the opponent.

Step, lunge, cross, and continue to followup the footwork momentum. This is how to start teaching the students to build combinations using momentum.

Even this is just a training stage. They need to move on to sparring after they get the basic idea of closing the distance and continuing the attack.

[yutyeesam]

This issue has bothered me lately. In longfist, I spend a lot of training time to repeat the drill as showing in the folllowing picture. It's just a simple "cross" but done in a low bow-arrow stance.

http://imageshack.us/a/img571/3836/punchz.jpg

All my life, I have never be able to punch my opponent like this (low bow-arrow stance). If I still train this drill today, I have to ask myself an honest question. If I have never used this move in combat, and also I may never use this in combat for the rest of my life, why am I wasting my training time to train this move for?

I can see that the low bow-arrow stance is good to build up the foundation such as "leg strength". But trying to build up "foundation" when I have reached to my medicare age just make no sense IMO. Why the "cross" used in higher stance doesn't exist in both longfist and praying mantis system? In other words, why the "boxing combat posture" doesn't exist in the forms of some TCMA systems? Did the ancient form creators ever fight? The more that I think about this, the less that I have respect to the ancient form creators.

Many people when they have reached to their medicare age, they may only care about "health" and not "combat". The older that I'm, the more that I can't afford to waste my training time on useless stuff.

We call it "Chuen Sum Choy", or piercing heart punch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsuNE...C8D51CA0804A4E

[B.Tunks]

TLQ definitely has cross in high 'stance'. All strikes can be delivered from either low, middle or high frame. In actual use, cross in dengshan/gong bu hits the same way boxing cross hits, i.e prior to full extension. Legs (and rest of body) do not end up in bow stance position as this is the exagerrated/fully extended post strike position - equivalent to 'punching through' the target. Pretty much every strike in TLQ should be delivered from the xiao dengshan, zhong or yuhuan shi (lesser mountain climbing, middle and jade ring). In fighting, footwork is transitional with almost no apparent 'stances' beyond the above mentioned, which funnily enough, fall somewhere between boxing and wrestling stance.

[YouKnowWho]

Form is not fighting. ...

The low bow-arrow stance

http://imageshack.us/a/img571/3836/punchz.jpg

is important in the throwing art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33mIS2ctC_w

Whether it's important in the striking art or not, that can be an interest discussion.

You can create a form that's the same as fighting.

If you remove partner from partner drills, you will get solo drills. If you link solo drills into a form, you will get a form that's the same as fighting. Since you will not use low bow-arrow stance in partner drills, your solo drills won't contain low bow-arrow stance. Your final form will not contain low bow-arrow stance either.

拳有練法、打法、演法（表演）三种变化 (form can be trained in 3 different ways).

- foundation training,
- combat training,
- performance.

The low bow-arrow stance is for foundation training and performance. It's not for combat training.

[-N-]

Since you will not use low bow-arrow stance in partner drills, your solo drills won't contain low bow-arrow stance. Your final form will not contain low bow-arrow stance either.

You can use low bow-arrow stance in partner drill as foundation training though.

[Kellen Bassette]

Talk about boxing, one of the best things I've ever heard from a boxer is simply this "not every punch is a knockout punch".

Best thing I ever heard from a boxer was, "It's a boxing match. Your going to get hit."

[crazedjustice88]

YouKnowWho:

I have only ever used that technique once, and it was just the simple reverse punch. My friend was cradled up in his muy thai defence and it just came out and it broke his defense. Other that that? I have never used it. Just because you have never used the technique doesn't mean that its not good. Maybe your body just prefers another technique. I see that with my sihing. He uses techniques that my body doesn't like and vice versa. But then again this is just my opinion and I could be TOTALLY wrong hahaha.

[Syn7]

What do you mean by "body doesn't like"?


As a youth I was heavily involved in dance. I would get into these zones and patterns and when I would go to learn something new, often it felt counter intuitive because it had a different rhythm, diff transitions etc... I found that simply putting in the time would fix that up real quick. You go from "wtf, this just isn't working out" and then it just clicks, you get it, and you end up wondering why it felt so wrong before when now it feels so right. And I don't even mean with just the complicated stuff, sometimes it was just a minor variation of a 6 step or something really basic like that.

Personally, I like it when I'm taken out of my comfort zone and forced to change my step. To me, that is real progress. Not that there is anything wrong with sticking with what works for you, I'm just sayin... you can break that pattern if you put in the time and effort.

[crazedjustice88]

What do you mean by "body doesn't like"?


As a youth I was heavily involved in dance. I would get into these zones and patterns and when I would go to learn something new, often it felt counter intuitive because it had a different rhythm, diff transitions etc... I found that simply putting in the time would fix that up real quick. You go from "wtf, this just isn't working out" and then it just clicks, you get it, and you end up wondering why it felt so wrong before when now it feels so right. And I don't even mean with just the complicated stuff, sometimes it was just a minor variation of a 6 step or something really basic like that.

Personally, I like it when I'm taken out of my comfort zone and forced to change my step. To me, that is real progress. Not that there is anything wrong with sticking with what works for you, I'm just sayin... you can break that pattern if you put in the time and effort.

Well of course. It all depends on what and how you train. But there are some techniques your body will pull out under stress and others it won't. My sihing can't use the shovel hand due to his wrist not being as flexible and even though he trains it, it doesn't come out. It does for me. Because of how much shorter my sihing is, he can get quicker combos due to his arm length. My arms are longer, so when I try to do those techniques they just aren't as quick as his.

That's what I mean. Sometimes genetic variation leads to favoring something's over others. That's just common sense.

I hope I was able to get my point across without speaking in circles.

[YouKnowWho]

What do you mean by "body doesn't like"?

I like to use toes push kick. I don't like to use heel kick. The "heel kick" is just a bit too short for me. I did spend a lot of training time for my heel kick. It's a big waste that I train it but I don't like to use it. It makes no sense at all.

[crazedjustice88]

I like to use toes push kick. I don't like to use heel kick. The "heel kick" is just a bit too short for me. I did spend a lot of training time for my heel kick. It's a big waste that I train it but I don't like to use it. It makes no sense at all.

My man...hahaha that's what I was meaning. Thanks for clarifying by the by.

[Kellen Bassette]

I like to use toes push kick. I don't like to use heel kick. The "heel kick" is just a bit too short for me. I did spend a lot of training time for my heel kick. It's a big waste that I train it but I don't like to use it. It makes no sense at all.

I prefer to use the toe, (ball of the foot,) as well. Heel is stronger, but toe has greater range. I am usually shorter than my opponents so I need that extra reach to control distance. But I like to use heel to the legs, less risk of injury if I hit the knee or shin. Sometimes I like a technique only for one specific application.

[Syn7]

Well of course. It all depends on what and how you train. But there are some techniques your body will pull out under stress and others it won't. My sihing can't use the shovel hand due to his wrist not being as flexible and even though he trains it, it doesn't come out. It does for me. Because of how much shorter my sihing is, he can get quicker combos due to his arm length. My arms are longer, so when I try to do those techniques they just aren't as quick as his.

That's what I mean. Sometimes genetic variation leads to favoring something's over others. That's just common sense.

I hope I was able to get my point across without speaking in circles.

Oh I hear you there. I have friends that can do crazy stuff that I simply am not strong enough or flexible enough to pull off. A friend of mine was in a car accident and broke her back and healed in such a way that she is limited in her movement. It's not that it hurts, she just doesn't bend that way and it doesn't matter how much effort she puts in, it just isn't going to happen. Her only option would be like a surgical rebreak/set situation that would involve like a year of healing and it just isn't worth it for her.