Cirsus of Shaolin or not ?

[Kellen Bassette]

Well he certainly had a dedicated cult following...

[Lucas]

he loved them, and they loved him.

[bawang]

Chan Buddhism has nothing to do with your racist whitey remarks. But you wouldn't understand.

im not racis. I have one white frend. I love colonel sanders.

[Kellen Bassette]

im not racis. I have one white frend. I love colonel sanders.

[RenDaHai]

Well, a major factor here is that print publishing became more readily available during this period. Prior to this, books were predominantly handwritten and literacy was very limited. But China had a renaissance akin to Europe, and suddenly, books - and more importantly gazettes - became accessible to more of the common folk. We don't really know when Kung Fu got formalized. Our opinion is based on evidence in the literature. But it may well be that it was the expansion in literature availability that grew to encompass Kung Fu and that it had been present all along. What we may be seeing is the advancement in records, not the birth of Kung Fu.

Precisely. Records that have survived tend to be ones printed that had many copies. Printing was a very expensive process and only very select things were printed. In 1490 movable metal type printing was invented in China, so it is no surprise that the 1500's is when more printed books start to appear.

This doesn't mean things started here.

(on a side note china had movable type printing much longer but wooden and ceramic methods were not as durable or as clear so the 16th century is when printing exploded)

[RenDaHai]

the poem says shaolin boxing was good, it didn't say it was ancient.

1600 staff manual by cheng zongyou, who trained at shaolin temple for 10 years, says it was a recent phenomenon that just got popular.

Well, the poem written before 1560 says it was already practiced then and already famous. Meaning it must have been practiced for a while.

So even if it started in 1550, thats still 70 years before the staff manual (in 1621), don't think he would call it that recent.... I need to see the quote in Chinese.

So what about Qijiguang referring to Song great ancestors 32 techniques? Song dynasty is 1000 years ago.

[kfman5F]

im not racis. I have one white frend. I love colonel sanders.

That explains everything. Bad diet. Too much grease. I suspect Col Sanders is really your teacher (and only friend). Now you are an expert at the ancient Shaolin Fried Chicken Long Wing Family Style.

[bawang]

Well, the poem written before 1560 says it was already practiced then and already famous. Meaning it must have been practiced for a while.

So even if it started in 1550, thats still 70 years before the staff manual (in 1621), don't think he would call it that recent.... I need to see the quote in Chinese.

you can stretch and extend years to fit definition of "recent", but its never going to be 1000 years.
pulling on ur penus doesn't make it longer.

So what about Qijiguang referring to Song great ancestors 32 techniques? Song dynasty is 1000 years ago.

song ancestor 32 long fist is indeed old. but boxing became popular in shaolin by 1600. does that mean shaolin is worthless to you now? is it not old enough?

[SHemmati]

somehow right. Shaolin is historically believed to be from 495 AD, evidences indicate practicing barehanded kung fu there even before Bodhidharma entered there. and the documents indicate many brilliant barehanded styles of the temple, created in the early centuries, the Song dynasty era, and after that. however, since in battlefield, barehanded kung fu was secondary, the famous Shaolin weapon, staffs made of iron, was of primary importance in actual combat. this career changed in the middles of Ming dynasty in favor of barehanded kung fu. though Shaolin staff kept its fame over all the other weapons.

[RenDaHai]

song ancestor 32 long fist is indeed old. but boxing became popular in shaolin by 1600. does that mean shaolin is worthless to you now? is it not old enough?

No. For me Shaolin is ChanWu and Stick fighting is still Wu. That has clearly been around in Shaolin for a very long time. In that book you quoted are bits about using martial arts to pursue self cultivation.

I am just worried Shaolin is getting misrepresented. Look how certain you are about this because of one line in one book (which I still need to check myself). When we have so little proof either way, I think we should have faith in the stories passed down for generations. Until recently most people everywhere were illiterate, the oral transmission of knowledge was sacred. I don't think you should dismiss it so casually.

[bawang]

I think we should have faith in the stories passed down for generations.

you lack faith in your self, your history, your culture and traditions. you want to believe in something more.

[RenDaHai]

you lack faith in your self, your history, your culture and traditions. you want to believe in something more.

You kidding? I love English history and tradition. I think we have the greatest culture on Earth and I intend to live there again when I am finished studying here.

From my experience so much of the things we do every day are steeped in ancient traditions that we don't even realise. As is the language we use. So many expressions go back centuries or more.

Once culture is engrained on a place it is very hard to remove. It survives for generations even as all the people change over. It doesn't appear over night nor can it be erased in a moment.

I have lived in Song Shan and the Shaolin culture here permeates everything, and it is ancient.

[bawang]

You kidding? I love English history and tradition. I think we have the greatest culture on Earth and I intend to live there again when I am finished studying here.

From my experience so much of the things we do every day are steeped in ancient traditions that we don't even realise. As is the language we use. So many expressions go back centuries or more.

Once culture is engrained on a place it is very hard to remove. It survives for generations even as all the people change over. It doesn't appear over night nor can it be erased in a moment.

I have lived in Song Shan and the Shaolin culture here permeates everything, and it is ancient.

so why do you insist on having faith in a myth that is not your own?

[Kellen Bassette]

C'mon RDH, give Bawang his myth back. It's not yours.

[pazman]

so why do you insist on having faith in a myth that is not your own?

It's about as heinous as when Chinese students do math proofs, attempting to co-opt Western culture.