Cirsus of Shaolin or not ?

[bawang]

What happened to your other reply that said you had evidence and he had fairy tales? Decided to take that one back, eh?

because I already talked about that document 4 5 times, if u tightey whitey shaolin fetish guys didn't listen to it before, why would you listen now?

QiJiGuang mentions Shaolin Gun in 1560. He mentions it along side all the other boxing styles in the boxing section. Then in the SAME section he says that no weapons are practiced without first learning Quan as it is the basics for all weapons.

his book was called NEW METHODS.

[RenDaHai]

his book was called NEW METHODS.

No, his book is called 'NEW BOOK on Effective Discipline'

It is a new book, by him. In it he lists a load of known methods.

JiXiao XinShu 紀效 新書

[RenDaHai]

"Among the past and present fist specialists, the Song Great Founder had the Long Fist system with 32 positions."

---QiJiGuang

Obviously even as late as 1560 Song Taizu Chang Quan was still famous. Song dynasty has a lot of boxing. Shaolin being one of them. If anything the 16th century was a revival of the art rather than a creation.

Following this we have:

Looking at Master Wen in the present day, we have the 72 moving fist methods, the 36 combining and locking techniques, the 24 counter-spy techniques, the 8 flash flips, and the 12 short strikes. These are the best of the lot. As for Lu Hong's 8 blows, while they are firm, they do not measure up to Min Zhang's short strike. The leg techniques of Shangdong's Li Bantian, Eagle Claw Wang's grappling methods, Thousand Stumble Zhang's stumbling techniques, Zhang Bojing's strikes, the Shaolin monastery stick fighting art, together with the Green Field cudgel methods, all stand as equals. Mr. Yang's spear arts together with the open hand, fist, and quarterstaff skills, are all famous to the present day.

'Famous to the present day' so they have been famous for a while. Funny how Shaolin stick fighting art is listed next to many other open hand techniques, in a section dedicated to open hand techniques. Its almost like Shaolin Gong Fu was referred to as Shaolin gun.... Just like it still is today sometimes.

For the most part, the fist, quarterstaff, knife, spear, woman's hairpin, rake, double-edged sword, halberd, bow and arrow, barb, sickle, beating shield, etc.--none doesn't first use fist methods to exercise the body and hands. These very fist techniques constitute the source of martial skill.

What??? Huh! But that means......

[bawang]

No, his book is called 'NEW BOOK on Effective Discipline'

It is a new book, by him. In it he lists a load of known methods.

JiXiao XinShu 紀效 新書

everything in the book was brand new. you are illiterate in chinese, you didn't actually read the contents.

1600 shaolin staff manual states "popularity of boxing is a recent phenomenon, that's why shaolin temple has decided to take up boxing"

ALL songshan shaolin boxing is variations of hong quan, which appeared about 400 years go. Xiaohongquan is the mother fist of shaolin kung fu.

400 years is very old. but for you it must be 4000000 years old. you have some secret desire that make you want this. but it is only known to you and the ghosts in your lower intestines.

[GeneChing]

MMA is only a few decades old and now everyone thinks it's the cat's meow.

its the spirit behind which he made his statement.

You just gotta wonder where you are at when a member who calls himself the 'ass assasssin' becomes the judge of your spirit.

What about all the arts taught to Shaolin during the early Sung dynasty? Is not the entire construct from the Abbot Fu Ju well documented?

The information on Abbot Fu Ju has aroused a lot of skepticism amongst scholars of late. Most believe it is fictional.

everything in the book was new. including boxing.

1600 shaolin staff manual states "popularity of boxing is a recent phenomenon, that's why shaolin temple has decided to take up boxing"

400 years is very old. but for you it must be 4000000 years old. you have some secret desire that make you want this.

Qi's work was a review of the styles present at the time, so it's a bit of a leap to say the boxing was new. It was present then, but it might have been longstanding. I do agree with you that 400 years is old enough. That's nearly twice the age of the U.S. and 10x the age of MMA.

Speaking of Qi Jiguang, you've all read this, yes?
What MMA Has to Teach Us about Chinese Martial Arts by Peter Lorge

[bawang]

You just gotta wonder where you are at when a member who calls himself the 'ass assasssin' becomes the judge of your spirit.

this is the spirit of shaolin. you wouldn't understand.

Qi's work was a review of the styles present at the time, so it's a bit of a leap to say the boxing was new. It was present then, but it might have been longstanding. I do agree with you that 400 years is old enough. That's nearly twice the age of the U.S. and 10x the age of MMA.

qi jiguang has two famous books, one on traditional warfare, one on new experimental methods.

chengzongyou 1600 shaolin staff manual states that boxing was new. this fits with historical records of previous martial arts.

[RenDaHai]

everything in the book was brand new. you are illiterate in chinese, you didn't actually read the contents.

1600 shaolin staff manual states "popularity of boxing is a recent phenomenon, that's why shaolin temple has decided to take up boxing"

ALL songshan shaolin boxing is variations of hong quan, which appeared about 400 years go. Xiaohongquan is the mother fist of shaolin kung fu.

400 years is very old. but for you it must be 4000000 years old. you have some secret desire that make you want this. but it is only known to you and the ghosts in your lower intestines.

But the principles of Shaolin Boxing all come from its earlier weapon fighting arts, and its weapon fighting arts are much older than 400 years. And contained a lot of the techniques in the fist styles anyway. Most of the best of Shaolin technique is already in this.

I would like to read this quote for myself in the Chinese, which manual is this?

Boxing DID see a huge boost in popularity in the 16th century, many styles date from this time. But it was also popular in Song dynasty also. Things go in and out of fashion.

Clearly there was a lot of boxing before Qi wrote his manual for all those styles to have evolved and been referred to in that way. There was no internet for things to go viral in those days. Things took generations.


ALsio Song Shaolin is not all variations of Hong Quan. Hong Quan and Tongbei form its basic skills, but the later sets cover a huge range of styles and some are quite bizarre and unrecognisable.

[bawang]

But the principles of Shaolin Boxing all come from its earlier weapon fighting arts, and its weapon fighting arts are much older than 400 years. And contained a lot of the techniques in the fist styles anyway. Most of the best of Shaolin technique is already in this.

the key difference is before 1600s it didn't matter a dam thing what fighting looked like .

its important to you guys that people were doing your forms 1000000 years before, it makes you special.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

the key difference is before 1600s it didn't matter a dam thing what fighting looked like .

its important to you guys that people were doing your forms 1000000 years before.

Wow! For once I am in total agreement with you! How in the hell did THAT happen?

[bawang]

Wow! For once I am in total agreement with you! How in the hell did THAT happen?

something lacking in your own life and culture.

[RenDaHai]

the key difference is before 1600s it didn't matter a dam thing what fighting looked like .

its important to you guys that people were doing your forms 1000000 years before.

Ok so I read bits from that book.

Awesome. Talks about Shaolin temple as a military academy. Performances of 1000 monks at a time. Talks about Shaolin staff method being famous from ancient times. Talks about Martial Arts being the way to buddhist cultivation. Even talks about Taolu sequences. Even names a few methods! YinshouGun, Xiao YeCha gun and Da yecha gun are all still practiced today!

Can't find the bit about boxing.

But there is a lot of praise for Shaolin's Martial arts.

ALso stuff about fighting technique comes from the staff and staff technique comes form shaolin... that kind of stuff.

This book really majorly supports my view of the shaolin temple.

[GeneChing]

the key difference is before 1600s it didn't matter a dam thing what fighting looked like .

its important to you guys that people were doing your forms 1000000 years before, it makes you special.

Actually, there are much older records of sword dancing, stuff that predates the 16th. And in dancing, it's pretty important what it looks like. Personally, I gave up on Tiger & Crane because it's too modern. I've been working on T-Rex & Triceratops, with a little Brontosaurus style mixed in.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Actually, there are much older records of sword dancing, stuff that predates the 16th. And in dancing, it's pretty important what it looks like. Personally, I gave up on Tiger & Crane because it's too modern. I've been working on T-Rex & Triceratops, with a little Brontosaurus style mixed in.

Brontos are so Taoist!!!

[RenDaHai]

The buddha is an expert magician; master of many techniques
Shaolin hand combat in the entire world is hardly equaled

This monk demonstrates even greater marvels
for in the mountains depths the white monkey has instructed him

….etc

--- Song of the emei monks fist, Tang shunzhi 1507-1560

a short poem clearly talking about a monk performing a form….

Alludes to Shaolin fist as being already known and famous (and it takes time for things to become famous, remember no internet or tv). Before 1560.

[bawang]

Alludes to Shaolin fist as being already known and famous (and it takes time for things to become famous, remember no internet or tv). Before 1560.

the poem says shaolin boxing was good, it didn't say it was ancient.

1600 staff manual by cheng zongyou, who trained at shaolin temple for 10 years, says it was a recent phenomenon that just got popular.