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Thread: Cirsus of Shaolin or not ?

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    If something seems missing then I don't think that will be correct. Song shan Shaolin is incredibly dense with technique and theory.

    One form is not just a simple collection of moves, but also contains entire strategies of combat.

    If you can give me an example of something you learned with application you think is missing something then I can understand your view more clearly.
    in my opinion the applications seem reinvented for the old historical techniques,but the modern monks don't have the knowledge of real combat. for example look at 33min on this video, block a punch then a kick from elbow and knee range,then throw a side kick to his chest from that range? makes no logical sense.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ylN...e-kEx1JXUs9TcA
    Last edited by wiz cool c; 08-05-2013 at 04:57 AM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz cool c View Post
    in my opinion the applications seem reinvented for the old historical techniques,but the modern monks don't have the knowledge of real combat. for example look at 33min on this video, block a punch then a kick from elbow and knee range,then throw a side kick to his chest from that range? makes no logical sense.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ylN...e-kEx1JXUs9TcA
    I can't watch youtube here, but I have yet to see a good application video...Quite possibly it is useless, but as I say there is a lot of that in every style of Kung fu. I meant more if you had studied a shaolin form tell me a movement you don't understand for example...

  3. #18
    if you want to get on youtube for 185rmb for three months try astril,. hard to say my teacher explains applications from the forms, but i leave scratching my head, feeling i still don't know how to use shaolin in a fight,which leads me to my theory that the applications are reinvented from modern monks without real combat experience

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz cool c View Post
    in my opinion the applications seem reinvented for the old historical techniques,but the modern monks don't have the knowledge of real combat. for example look at 33min on this video, block a punch then a kick from elbow and knee range,then throw a side kick to his chest from that range? makes no logical sense.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ylN...e-kEx1JXUs9TcA
    Sometime we try to explain the form application. There is a possibility that the original form creator didn't create the form right.

    The move shown in that clip at 33 min also exist in the longfist form Mai Fu Chuan #2. Does that move have any combat value? I have never seen anybody ever used it in sparring. Sometime a combo just looks too good may not have any true combat value. If you slide in and use your "left shoulder" to strike at your opponent's chest at that moment, you can then set up many good moves after that. But a shoulder strike at that moment may not look good from the performance point of view.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4IDZPghHU4 (at 0.12)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq3P5wKrW94 (at 0.21)

    Another move is the Yang Taiji "needle at the bottom of the sea." During annual Taiji association meeting in Taiwan, all Taiji instructors tried to give their explanation how to use that move. There was a famous master even said it's a grab/press on your opponent's knee joint.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 08-05-2013 at 09:34 AM.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post

    The move shown in that clip at 33 min also exist in the longfist form Mai Fu Chuan #2. Does that move have any combat value? I have never seen anybody ever used it in sparring. Sometime a combo just looks too good may not have any true combat value. If you slide in and use your "left shoulder" to strike at your opponent's chest at that moment, you can then set up many good moves after that. But a shoulder strike at that moment may not look good from the performance point of view.
    when you sell a kung fu dvd, you change the application to make sure the buyer can never use it effectively.

    the guy reversed the footwork and over complicated the technique. you are supposed to dodge a punch and move away, he make you move into the punch. you are supposed to maintain distance and protect your face, he makes you open your guard and try to double block.
    this is the epitomy of flower fist rubber leg. the guy kick looks like waving a wet towel up and down.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post

    Another move is the Yang Taiji "needle at the bottom of the sea." During annual Taiji association meeting in Taiwan, all Taiji instructors tried to give their explanation how to use that move. There was a famous master even said it's a grab/press on your opponent's knee joint.
    needle stabs. old name is cannon to the bottom of the sea.
    Last edited by bawang; 08-05-2013 at 11:11 AM.

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  6. #21
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    I can't see any of these moves.....And I don't know Taiji, but the name of the technique is usually a codeword for its use.

    'Bottom of the sea' is HaiDi, this is another name for the point HuiYin which is at the perineum. So often a technique called 'HaiDi' implies attacking the bladder or groin (bladder is the 'sea' of the body). Needle means to use the fingers or the points of the toes.

    So needle to the bottom fo the sea would mean stabbing into the groin with your fingers or using a stabbing kick into the groin, one which stabs forwards rather than lifts up, or indeed using the hook hand upwards into the groin, perhaps from Huitouwangyue or some other such turning back technique.


    Song Shan forms have passed many generations, in the old forms all the techniques have purpose and every move can be used in combination with its surrounding moves well. If the performance is an old form I am certain I could explain the technique combo if I could see it. Does anyone know the name of the form or the name of the techniques in question?

    @Wiz, thanks man, I have tried proxies, they never seem to work for very long.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 08-05-2013 at 12:25 PM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Dooes anyone know the name of the form or the name of the techniques in question?
    It's also similar to Taiji "white crane flap wings" that you use

    - Right outside upward block at your opponent's left punch.
    - Left downward block at his right kick.
    - Upward wrist hook to catch his kicking leg.
    - Side kick back at his chest.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 08-05-2013 at 01:55 PM.
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  8. #23
    sorry, i was supposed to post something, but i didn't do it in time.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiz cool c View Post
    in my opinion the applications seem reinvented for the old historical techniques,but the modern monks don't have the knowledge of real combat. for example look at 33min on this video, block a punch then a kick from elbow and knee range,then throw a side kick to his chest from that range? makes no logical sense.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ylN...e-kEx1JXUs9TcA
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    The move shown in that clip at 33 min also exist in the longfist form Mai Fu Chuan #2. Does that move have any combat value? I have never seen anybody ever used it in sparring. Sometime a combo just looks too good may not have any true combat value.
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    when you sell a kung fu dvd, you change the application to make sure the buyer can never use it effectively.

    the guy reversed the footwork and over complicated the technique. you are supposed to dodge a punch and move away, he make you move into the punch. you are supposed to maintain distance and protect your face, he makes you open your guard and try to double block.
    no, the performer does not change that movement, neither it's illogical. just as seems, your kung fu backgrounds are in styles other than SongShan Shaolin kung fu itself. most the southern and northern kung fu styles prescribe keeping your so-called vital points from the opponent, while SongShan Shaolin strategically acts fiercer and may go directly through the opponents' guards. these are because of the difference in the combat techniques contents. Shaolin has a vast technical portion in grappling, while most these techniques and their strategies have not been adopted into most the northern and southern styles, so while most other schools look like kicking and punching, real Shaolin fighters are skilled grapplers as well. i'll describe these in another post.

    that specific application at min 33 of that video is quite authentic. it obeys the SongShan Shaolin kicking strategy: "The hands open the gates, the legs destroy them." which means before kicking a target, one best strategy can be to use your arms and hands to open the opponent's guard, then destroy the target with your kick. to do this, some people block both the opponent's body sides with their arms, here the guy uses 7-star arms, with one arm guarding the head and upper body (heart and mind) and the other guarding the lower points (groins), so the guard is somehow good. because of the arms' actions, the gate becomes quite open for the leg to attack. such short-range kicks are ultimately lethal, while southerners don't do high-level kicks, and northerners do them from range!

    this is just one possible application for this movement. one can mention tens of other applications. anyhow, is there still anything that does not seem logical with this application here?
    Last edited by SHemmati; 08-29-2013 at 02:16 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    is there still anything that does not seem logical with this application here?
    Quote Originally Posted by wiz cool c View Post
    block a punch then a kick from elbow and knee range,then throw a side kick to his chest from that range? makes no logical sense.
    As wiz cool c had pointed out, the distance is too short to make your kick to be effective. Your opponent's forward momentum will jam your kick and stop your kick before you get chance to be fully extended.

    It's not hard to try this with your training partner. Ask your opponent to come in with a punch and kick, and see whether you will have enough time to

    - block his punch,
    - block his kick,
    - twist your body, and
    - kick your "back" leg out.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 08-05-2013 at 06:14 PM.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHemmati View Post
    southerners don't do high-level kicks
    How do you know that? In my CLF lineage, we have moves that are virtually indistinguishable from that move in the vid. Except in practice, the attacker isn't far away and static, like in the vid. And the way the attacker is attacking doesn't make sense. But the general purpose is the same. It's very difficult to actually apply that under live fire. I've never actually seen it done, like in the vid. Moving forward into it like that is highly unrealistic. We also include kicks at all levels in practice, and many kicks from close range. But at such close range it usually changes to a knee, a low front thrust or step in and throw in actual application
    Last edited by Jimbo; 08-05-2013 at 06:17 PM.

  11. #26
    [QUOTE]
    that specific application at min 33 of that video is quite authentic. it obeys the SongShan Shaolin kicking strategy: "The hands open the gates, the legs destroy them." which means before kicking a target, one best strategy can be to use your arms and hands to open the opponent's guard, then destroy the target with your kick. to do this, some people block both the opponent's body sides with their arms, here the guy uses 7-star arms, with one arm guarding the head and upper body (heart and mind) and the other guarding the lower points (groins), so the guard is somehow good. this double-sided block is also seen in Luohan quan, it's the famous 'Luohan Sleeps' posture, Qi Xing quan and Chang Hu Xin Yi Men quan are also famous for using 7-star arms. because of the arms actions, the gate is quite open for the leg to attack. such short-range kicks are ultimately lethal, while southerners don't do high-level kicks, and northerners do them from range


    how can that application be correct? first you move inside of the guys punch,from here he throws a kick? who throws a kick from that range,and you block it by brining your hand down,that is a stretch to begin with, then side kick him in the chest,from this close range,with your arms still holding his leg and arm in this awkward position.
    Last edited by wiz cool c; 08-05-2013 at 06:05 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz cool c View Post
    i would like to hear an educated answer to this question as well. I have noticed a problem with the applications of shaolin kung fu. there seems to be something missing from them, and the teachers that teach them are also unclear about them. or reinvented them in recent time,without having a clear fighting knowledge.
    The proper applications to most of the Shaolin stuff was well preserved outside of China. Look to Malaysian and Indonesian Kung Fu. It's all pickled into the Silat styles too.

    Everything I ever learned in Kung Fu made rational sense when I started playing with Kuntao/Silat de Thouars.

    All the missing pieces are there.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    When you learn A Shaolin technique, it has a poetic name, it has not just an application but an entire strategy of its employment and specific techniques it changes into. It has its specific method of Shenfa, for generating power and avoiding the opponents attack. It follows the principles of Shaolin which are many. This is the same for every old style in China.
    This is my experience as well. In actuality, I have found the technique to be secondary to it's method of deployment.

    The success or failure of the technique does not lay in the technique itself, but in all the stuff "unseen" that leads up to it. The technique is just the finish.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    If something seems missing then I don't think that will be correct. Song shan Shaolin is incredibly dense with technique and theory.

    One form is not just a simple collection of moves, but also contains entire strategies of combat.

    If you can give me an example of something you learned with application you think is missing something then I can understand your view more clearly.
    Well, this is only true if the teacher is good. So at Shaolin, I would expect there to be lots of high quality teachers. Although, it seems they are not the face put forth. more like the underlying framework.

    Like a bone, it is there, but we cannot see it under the surface because it is covered with skin.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  15. #30
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    [QUOTE=wiz cool c;1243055]



    how can that application be correct? first you move inside of the guys punch,from here he throws a kick? who throws a kick from that range,and you block it by brining your hand down,that is a stretch to begin with, then side kick him in the chest,from this close range,with your arms still holding his leg and arm in this awkward position.
    I agree completely.

    However, if the attacker forward momentum brought him closer, the sudden drop in height would aid in shoving his knee off to the side to destabilize him.

    If you ignore the 2 person demo, and look at the actual move done in solo, you can see the hand work clears not one, but two upper body attacks so the force is negated off to the side. One arm, can now cover two.

    Then, when you drop your weight, the left arm presses on their knee and with the help of your dropping body, shoves it to the outside breaking their connection to the ground.

    I submit that the side kick, is not actually a kick, but a deep step, right through their now destabilized leg, so you can plow through their center and topple them like a bad game of "Jenga"
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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