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Thread: Cirsus of Shaolin or not ?

  1. #31
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    What technique is this close range kick your all talking about?

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    What technique is this close range kick your all talking about?
    Right arm block punch, left arm block kick, and side kick back.

    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...Q9QEwAA&dur=96
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 08-05-2013 at 08:34 PM.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai
    What technique is this close range kick your all talking about?
    It's the xiebu chuaitui from the 18 jibengong video by Shi Decheng.

    The application Shi Decheng shows changes the action of the arms completely, making them spread open like a high palm block and low goushou to block a punch and catch a kick, and then sidekick from that close a range directly in front of the opponent. Looking like this;



    The problem is that's a completely different action. The arms aren't doing that at all. The elbows are kept in tight as in baoshou suoshen with one fist guarding high and one striking low. They never spread open in the actual move.

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    'Bottom of the sea' is HaiDi, this is another name for the point HuiYin which is at the perineum. So often a technique called 'HaiDi' implies attacking the bladder or groin (bladder is the 'sea' of the body). Needle means to use the fingers or the points of the toes.
    Yes. A more practical application of the above action is to shantou or 'slip' to the outside of a punch and strike low into the bladder while turning the step into xiebu to then set up the kick from the outside, which of course needs not be so high. It can be to the knee, hip, or ribs.

    The problem with the application he showed (besides it being a completely different action) is that no one is going to throw a rear leg round kick while leaving their lead hand punch out for you to catch them both. It's a classic setup of teacher telling student what to do so they can apply some fantasy app. Not gonna work.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Right arm block punch, left arm block kick, and side kick back.
    Thanks for that YKW,

    Every Shaolin technique respects the principle, XianFang HouGong, that is first block then attack.

    However it is necessary to know that even when there is nothing the block the blocking action is done anyway. This confuses the enemy and disguises your technique as well as maintaining balance, helping power, it also keeps you guarded in case things do not go the way you thought.

    I cannot see the action but it is likely the video is over justifying the hands, showing them actually blocking. Most of the time you would not block anything but move the hands in this way as 'Huang Shou' deception. Or alternatively you would block the kick but raise the hand to the face simply to maintain the guard, then kick. It does seem strange to actually block two things then do this.

    For example, the classic technique HeiHuTaoXin, Black tiger scoops out heart.



    Most people will try to demo this as a block and a punch, but it is far more common to use this as an attack than a reaction. That is the upper hand rushed towards their face in a horizontal strike at eye level. This is not super powerful but it also cannot be ignored and it is very easy to block. When the opponent blocks it their blocking hand is trapped as your arm is a horizontal bar which prevents it from dropping again. Then you fist can come underneath and strike at their heart. They only have one hand and no space to guard, also it is hard to see since the horizontal arm covers their eyes. If they do manage to stop the punch, the upper hand immedietly becomes a chop down onto their head. It is a very difficult combo to block and it is best to evade. Because of the orientation of the hands the attacker is well guarded throughout the combo. If the first hand is not blocked it hits their head back and opens their heart the more so for the lower punch.

    So it is best used as an attack, though it seems as though it is a defence. Used in this way it has a very good chance to hit in my experience. The name explanes the technique, black tiger does not mean a black tiger but that there is a tiger hidden in the darkness. It is a name given to 'no shadow' techniques. The first hand obscures the view of the second hand. Scoops out heart refers to the feeling when you are hit in the solar plexus. SO the name tells you this is a deceptive technique to strike the heart.

    I explain this to illustrate that the guarding hand does not always have to actually be thought of as guarding as appears to be the mistake in the video, though I cannot see it.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 08-05-2013 at 10:24 PM.

  5. #35
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    Again, this has nothing to do with the teacher's ability to explain the form application. If the form creator did not create a meaningful form, there isn't much that any teacher can do.

    At 0.37 of the following form, he moved his right hand to his right and then suddenly throw his right palm to his left. Even today, I still cannot find a meaningful application for that. Some people may say it's a training for the eyes. Others may say it's a dart throwing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek (at 0.37)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN6CV...ature=youtu.be

    What do you think it should be?
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 08-05-2013 at 10:39 PM.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Again, this has nothing to do with the teacher's ability to explain the form application. If the form creator did not create a meaningful form, there isn't much that any teacher can do.

    At 0.37 of the following form, he moved his right hand to his right and then suddenly throw his right palm to his left. Even today, I still cannot find a meaningful application for that. Some people may say it's a training for the eyes. Others may say it's a dart throwing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek (at 0.37)

    What do you think it should be?
    I can't see the video... Is there a name of the form? If it Shaolin I will know it.

    Because Song Shan forms have passed so many generations of good masters, It is unusual to find a bad technique (in the old forms), more common the problem is with my ability to understand.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    I can't see the video... Is there a name of the form? If it Shaolin I will know it.

    Because Song Shan forms have passed so many generations of good masters, It is unusual to find a bad technique (in the old forms), more common the problem is with my ability to understand.
    The name of this form is "Shao Fu Yeh (little tiger swallow)". It's a very common "fancy ending move" for many longfist system forms.

    - You throw your right hand to your right with your elbow straight, arm parallel to the ground. Your eyes follow it to your right.
    - You then throw your right palm to your left and on top of your head (like an overhead block). Your then turn your eyes to your left.

    It's like an overhead block but since it's not a raising upper arm. It's quite confusing.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 08-05-2013 at 10:49 PM.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    The name of this form is "Shao Fu Yeh (little tiger swallow)". It's a very common "fancy ending move" for many longfist system forms.

    - You throw your right hand to your right with your elbow straight, arm parallel to the ground. Your eyes follow it to your right.
    - You then throw your right palm to your left and on top of your head (like an overhead block). Your then turn your eyes to your left.

    It's like an overhead block but since it's not a raising upper arm. It's quite confusing.
    You mean the ending posture;

    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTU1MDMzOTQ4.html

    The ending posture is KuaHu.... The technique is a hook hand by the hips. This technique is almost always done side on to the opponent. The upper hand is not blocking anything, rather the focus is on the hand by the hips. It ends by the hips but if it catches something it turns into a hook hand and goes past.

    Why does the right hand not go accross the face? I'll explain. YOu are side on to the opponent, the opponent is to your left and at quite a range. There is no way from this position that they can land a hammer fist on your head. The right hand is raising to the head to prepare itself for whatever comes next and is not actively blocking. If you raise the hand accross your face you have obscured your vision for nothing. When done correctly the right hand moves exactly at the edge of your peripheral vision so it does not obscure. Even where it ends it is in a location that does not obscure peripheral vision. Peripheral vision is the most important defence you have and there is a lot of theory of Yan fa, how to use the eyes.

    When guarding if you move the eyes from their focus even for a second you can lose easily. The most important thing is to stay focused on the opponents face (yi kan yan, er kan mei). Moving a hand in front of your eyes massively reduces reaction time, more than any other factor.

    The technique kuahu turnes the waist side on to evade the lower attack and catches with the hook, the upper hand preparing. Why not move the right hand to the left ear to guard? This posture appears only at very close range. Actually in long range it is not as good as the hand above the head, it takes effort, obscures vision and when the strike has momentum it does not stop it. The hand above the head can drop down with momentum and can stop many things.

    There are other strikes that use the hand sweeping out like this, namely Zanzi shou, but they are square to the opponent, this is side one.

    I must leave for training now.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 08-05-2013 at 11:07 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    You mean the ending posture;

    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTU1MDMzOTQ4.html

    The ending posture is KuaHu.... The technique is a hook hand by the hips.
    I learned this set when I did Mantis as a kid. This kuahu (hukua) technique shows up in every northern style I've experienced (Shaolin, Taijiquan, etc.) and has the same interpretation.

  10. #40

    Then, when you drop your weight, the left arm presses on their knee and with the help of your dropping body, shoves it to the outside breaking their connection to the ground.

    I submit that the side kick, is not actually a kick, but a deep step, right through their now destabilized leg, so you can plow through their center and topple them like a bad game of "Jenga"
    that makes a lot more sense,and also sounds similar to two applications i learned from two different shaolin teachers,but not for that specific move.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    It's the xiebu chuaitui from the 18 jibengong video by Shi Decheng.

    The application Shi Decheng shows changes the action of the arms completely, making them spread open like a high palm block and low goushou to block a punch and catch a kick, and then sidekick from that close a range directly in front of the opponent. Looking like this;



    The problem is that's a completely different action. The arms aren't doing that at all. The elbows are kept in tight as in baoshou suoshen with one fist guarding high and one striking low. They never spread open in the actual move.



    Yes. A more practical application of the above action is to shantou or 'slip' to the outside of a punch and strike low into the bladder while turning the step into xiebu to then set up the kick from the outside, which of course needs not be so high. It can be to the knee, hip, or ribs.

    The problem with the application he showed (besides it being a completely different action) is that no one is going to throw a rear leg round kick while leaving their lead hand punch out for you to catch them both. It's a classic setup of teacher telling student what to do so they can apply some fantasy app. Not gonna work.
    This is my problem with almost ALL Chinese apps of moves. The action of the application is never the move you do in the form. However, in the Indonesian preserved stuff I have done, the motion in the form, is identical to the usage shown.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royal Dragon View Post
    This is my problem with almost ALL Chinese apps of moves. The action of the application is never the move you do in the form. However, in the Indonesian preserved stuff I have done, the motion in the form, is identical to the usage shown.
    A little modification in mechanics can be expected, but elbows in to elbows out, tight structure to wide open, a straight punch turning into a sweeping hook?

  13. #43
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    This is Shi Xinghong's interpretation of the action, @14:20
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Raj_qVSiZHw

    Only thing is, coming straight down the center while twisting and leaning like this is not practical, unless you expect your opponent to just stand there and throw that one punch. Otherwise you're putting yourself in a bad position.

    For me, it should be 'slipping' to the outside of the punch keeping the guard hand up while simultaneously delivering the bladder strike, followed by a more strategically placed kick from the outside; to the knee, hip, or ribs.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    A little modification in mechanics can be expected, but elbows in to elbows out, tight structure to wide open, a straight punch turning into a sweeping hook?
    Minor modification sure. One has to adjust to the dimensions of their opponent and all that. Breaking the principals of the technique, no.

    There are a lot of Kung Fu schools who can fight. However, their fighting does not seem to have anything to do with the forms they practice.

    One thing I learned through my AKTS stuff, is a LOT of things seen in the forms, that are shown against striking actions, are not counter striking techniques. They are designed to destabilize and take the opponent down.

    The "Hero in Horse Stance" seen at the end of most modern Shaolin forms is an example of that. The combat use is a takedown. The hand that goes high is lifting their arm up. This destabalises the upper structure. The hand that punches down, is wrapped around the opponent's neck as your weight descends. Your thighs wedge under theirs to provide the fulcrum.

    When your entry is right, they go down super easy; and it's done EXACTLY like it's done in the form/
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Royal Dragon View Post
    The proper applications to most of the Shaolin stuff was well preserved outside of China. Look to Malaysian and Indonesian Kung Fu.
    I don't know about Malaysian systems, but isn't most Indonesian Kung Fu of Cantonese origin? I don't think it would follow the same lines as Songshan.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

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