Cirsus of Shaolin or not ?

[Kellen Bassette]

I cannot see the action but it is likely the video is over justifying the hands, showing them actually blocking. Most of the time you would not block anything but move the hands in this way as 'Huang Shou' deception. Or alternatively you would block the kick but raise the hand to the face simply to maintain the guard, then kick. It does seem strange to actually block two things then do this.

If the demonstrator had simply thrown the sidekick as a counter to the punch, the move would work beautifully and practically. The other motions were unnecessary. The blocking the punch and kick, moving forward, only put him at more risk and left him at a range where clinch would be natural and sidekick would not.

[SHemmati]

for Ren,

movement and application (click to view in original size):

__________

...Except in practice, the attacker isn't far away and static, like in the vid. And the way the attacker is attacking doesn't make sense. But the general purpose is the same. It's very difficult to actually apply that under live fire. I've never actually seen it done, like in the vid. Moving forward into it like that is highly unrealistic. We also include kicks at all levels in practice, and many kicks from close range. But at such close range it usually changes to a knee, a low front thrust or step in and throw in actual application

how can that application be correct? first you move inside of the guys punch,from here he throws a kick? who throws a kick from that range,and you block it by brining your hand down,that is a stretch to begin with, then side kick him in the chest,from this close range,with your arms still holding his leg and arm in this awkward position.

about the southern style kicks, their saying is: kick as high as possible in practice, but try not kick higher than the belt level in actual combat. this is the usual prescription in most (not all) the southern regions.


back to the movement:
in the application, he first blocks the opponent's punching arm, then immediately grabs it. the opponent's arm is in trap, he will react. if he reacts with his opposite hand or leg, your other arm can block it. here, your argument is that at such a short range one cannot extend his leg and exert an effective 'explosive' power in the kick.
yes, of course such a short grappling range is not at all proper for an extended 'explosive' kick. BUT, explosive forcing is just 1 kind out of the 4 kinds of forcing in Chinese martial arts shenfa (body mechanics). there are 3 other kinds: 'pushing,' 'inch,' and 'penetrating' forcings. here, in this short range, the leg can push the opponent away, this can take down or throw him away. pushing needs a very very short range at the beginning, so that when we want to push something away, we first put our palms in touch with it and then begin forcing it slowly but with whole our body weight. here the guy can put the sole of his foot on the opponent's pelvis or the inner side of his thigh or knee, and begin pushing him. this can take him down, throw him away, or more dangerously, break his knee. such actions need a short range between you and the opponents and cannot be done properly when you're far from him.
as mentioned, another kind of forcing in such a kick can be 'inch' forcing, which means doing an explosive action with short-range movements. here the guy can use his heel like a hammer to trample the opponent's groins, thigh, or knee. unlike the 'explosive' or 'pushing' actions, trampling is an inch action and doesn't at all need your leg to be stretched and extended out at the end of the movement. the guy in this video is doing a pushing kick on the opponent's pelvis to take him down, nothing is wrong.

[SHemmati]

If the demonstrator had simply thrown the sidekick as a counter to the punch, the move would work beautifully and practically. The other motions were unnecessary. The blocking the punch and kick, moving forward, only put him at more risk and left him at a range where clinch would be natural and sidekick would not.

other brothers also told such things. but a simple kick to an skilled opponent is not usually a fatal move. fatality is when you combine other actions to empower the attack's effect. the movement, as this guy does it (i described it above), is an effective way to break the opponent's knee or injure his leg, while a simple kick is much more easier for the opponents to overcome.
besides, the side kick is not going to be like the full-extended leg sidekicks as we see in all martial arts. it's a short range one to push or trample, it's not an explosive attack.

[YouKnowWho]

There are a lot of Kung Fu schools who can fight. However, their fighting does not seem to have anything to do with the forms they practice.

This is why I want to reverse the order. If I make the following combo sequence as my form, my fighting will be the same as my training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAsoz25pIq0

This is also why I have given up all my TCMA forms. I create my own drills instead. My solo drills (forms) are my partner drills without partner. This way I can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

[SHemmati]

Minor modification sure. One has to adjust to the dimensions of their opponent and all that. Breaking the principals of the technique, no.

There are a lot of Kung Fu schools who can fight. However, their fighting does not seem to have anything to do with the forms they practice.

One thing I learned through my AKTS stuff, is a LOT of things seen in the forms, that are shown against striking actions, are not counter striking techniques. They are designed to destabilize and take the opponent down.

The "Hero in Horse Stance" seen at the end of most modern Shaolin forms is an example of that. The combat use is a takedown. The hand that goes high is lifting their arm up. This destabalises the upper structure. The hand that punches down, is wrapped around the opponent's neck as your weight descends. Your thighs wedge under theirs to provide the fulcrum.

When your entry is right, they go down super easy; and it's done EXACTLY like it's done in the form/

i'll post the reply to this and your previous comments, Royal. this is a common misunderstanding about the forms and combat methods in SongShan Shaolin kung fu and other major kung fu schools. just let me write it, it takes some time.

[SHemmati]

Minor modification sure. One has to adjust to the dimensions of their opponent and all that. Breaking the principals of the technique, no.

There are a lot of Kung Fu schools who can fight. However, their fighting does not seem to have anything to do with the forms they practice.

One thing I learned through my AKTS stuff, is a LOT of things seen in the forms, that are shown against striking actions, are not counter striking techniques. They are designed to destabilize and take the opponent down.

The "Hero in Horse Stance" seen at the end of most modern Shaolin forms is an example of that. The combat use is a takedown. The hand that goes high is lifting their arm up. This destabalises the upper structure. The hand that punches down, is wrapped around the opponent's neck as your weight descends. Your thighs wedge under theirs to provide the fulcrum.

When your entry is right, they go down super easy; and it's done EXACTLY like it's done in the form/

let me clarify this in three paragraphs:

the original Chinese creators themselves have said that every movement in their art is both attack and defense. this means they have intended the movements to act at more than just one situation, for different applications. another thing, if you're going to view the techniques in this way, then you need an ocean of movements, one movement for every applications. no, this is not a proper view. every technique, you consider a Qinna technique for example, can have various variations under various conditions. here let's consider an example:

here, for example, you consider the simplest movement in all the Shaolin forms, the 'Buddhist salute,' join the palms in front of chest and bow. even this simplest movement can be perfectly used for numerous bone-breaking applications. like when the opponent has grasped your clothing in the chest, you can do this, putting your arms on his wrists and pushing his palms to your chest (as he himself is doing it now), and bow forward, his wrists are injured. then do you have to do this movement with the palms in touch like the Buddhist salute? no, you can interlock the fingers to empower your trap, you can do it with the arms interlocked, with the palms at the bicep of the other arm, like we do it while standing every day. and many other such ways. the last one, the arms interlocked seems much different from the original Buddhist salute pose, is this really a different application? all of these are variations of the 5th technique at min 11:40 in this video of elementary 32 Qinna's of Shaolin. it can also be equally used when the opponent has grabbed you with a single hand. then what will you do? it's better to instead of simply putting your palms together, you grab his hand between your joined palms, like in the 6th technique in the same 32 methods of Qinna video. the Buddhist salute perfectly matches both these, and any other variation of such kind. beside these, that Buddhist salute also 'perfectly' matches the 32th Qinna technique, at 54:50 of this video. though each of these applications demands a totally different forcing, it is in perfect matching with all of them. and this is because of an important yet simple point, that the same movement can be done, in principle, with infinite forcing ways. so this Buddhist salute, as just one movement that has the potential of doing those applications, can likewise be potentially used for many other applications. besides this, there may be many other movements that can be used for the same kinds of forcing, and so have the potential of doing these same applications.


all such arguments come from a common misunderstanding, i'll explain it in detail. the problem is that unlike what is publicly thought, in the major Chinese martial arts, like SongShan Shaolin, most the times, we don't deduce applications from the forms movements, but we first have the combat techniques sets, and then later learn/find out which movements in the forms have the potential of doing which and which applications. (i'll explain this in much detail in another post.) so when we analyze a specific movement in a form, like that 'sit on mountain (hero on horse)' movement you mentioned, besides the blocking and other applications that can be directly deduced from the movement itself, it has the potential of being used for, for example, n number out of the R qinna, block, take down, etc, applications we've learned. this way, one may be able of doing at least 10 or more qinna and much much more other applications with the same sit on mountain movement you mentioned above, like the case of the Buddhist salute i mentioned above.

[wenshu]

this thread lives up to its name

[RenDaHai]

for Ren,

movement and application (click to view in original size):

Thanks Shemmati, now I see the problem.

When someone uses this technique (kick and punch together) You would not attempt to block them both simultaneously and on the inside. Thats the silly bit.

This particular side kick is from some versions of Luohan Quan. The hands are held in this way throughout the kick. (actually, when you kick the lower hand is inside the leg, covering the groin). Side kick is not actually that common in the old forms, and when it does appear it has different hand movements in every form.

When kicking the groin is most vulnerable, if the leg is momentarily stopped the opponent can counter-attack to the groin immedietaly. So through out the kick one fist is held over the groin to stop any kick that might hit it during the time the kick is extended.

There is no need to use the hands in any way, it is just a sensible way to put them in case.

In this situation I would not attempt to block both the kick and the punch, rather avoid the punch and guard the kick. However if we were intent on using this specific technique to counter that specific attack then typically it would be done in a different way. Namely the kick blocked on inside, the arm on the outside, both are pushed to the side (pushed in the same direction) using LueSHou, because the opponent is on one leg they will be pushed away somewhat at which point side kick to the side of knee is sensible (they will have been turned away during the push). The hands would be in a similar formation though they would be soft not hard.

[YouKnowWho]

The lower arm doesn't have to block a kick. When your left hand grab on your opponent's right wrist, your right hand grab on his left wrist, you push his left hand up and his right hand down, you can use your left shoulder to attack his chest.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't know about Malaysian systems, but isn't most Indonesian Kung Fu of Cantonese origin? I don't think it would follow the same lines as Songshan.

A lot of the stuff I do has a Shantung origin. Basically it's the same, old school, pre Moslem Long Fist military arts that were preserved at Shaolin in the Song dynasty.

The forms are unique, but the body of techniques and usage are the same. At least that is what I got from comparing Sal Canzonieri's Shaolin, with the Kuntao/Silat I was exploring.

My branch contains that, Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua too. Again, the forms are kind of unique, but the body of techniques and usage is the same.

We also have a bunch of Hakka stuff in our line as well.

[Royal Dragon]

This is why I want to reverse the order. If I make the following combo sequence as my form, my fighting will be the same as my training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAsoz25pIq0

This is also why I have given up all my TCMA forms. I create my own drills instead. My solo drills (forms) are my partner drills without partner. This way I can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

That is the old way.

According to my studies, forms were the LAST thing taught. They were constructed of the techniques one fought with, as they were fought.

Originally they were a diploma so other masters of the style could recognize if someone they did not know, had actually gone through the full course of study, or not. They were not supposed to be taught first, and then deciphered for usable application. They were the final cumulation of a *Master's* knowledge. Not for students at all.

[RenDaHai]

The lower arm doesn't have to block a kick. When your left hand grab on your opponent's right wrist, your right hand grab on his left wrist, you push his left hand up and his right hand down, you can use your left shoulder to attack his chest.

TieShenkaoDa. Talking about the one hand up one down posture in XieBu, yeah, there is a lot you can do with it. But in this form it specifically is followed by a side kick and then repeats 3 times. THe hands are in this formation with this kick simply to protect the groin.

But this hand formation does exist in many other techniques and a specific version of the technique you just described exists in the same form at the end, the technique is called Wo Zhen (to lie on a pillow) and attacks with the head or shoulder or both from close range. Da Luohan Quan Yi Lu.

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ylN...e-kEx1JXUs9TcA

Actually I think at 33 min, the attacker should throw a kick first. When his opponent blocks and catches his kick, he then try to put weight on his kicking leg (this will make his opponent harder to hold on his leg), and use punch to free his leg from his opponent's holding.

[RenDaHai]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ylN...e-kEx1JXUs9TcA

Actually I think at 33 min, the attacker should throw a kick first. When his opponent blocks and catches his kick, he then try to put weight on his kicking leg, and use punch to free his leg from his opponent's holding.

Well indeed. This technique is done in a sequence as follows; XieBuZhaoDan (cross stance cover groin) --- Side Kick ---- XieBuZhaoDan (on the other side) ---- side kick (other side).

So it kicks and follows the kick with the same stance, XieBu. This is an individual drill and done this way, the two stances are combined forwards and backwards. In the form it is repeated 3 times before moving on. So you could use the xie bu after the kick and it is the same form.

But when performing the side kick the hands stay in the same formation in FRONT of the body, so the hand is still covering the groin.

This is technique is ZhaoDanCeChuaiTui, cover groin side kick. One of many different types of side kick that exist.

[Royal Dragon]

Well, Ok, I can't argue this. However, I gave one example of the use of that technique. Of course you can use any technique in a variety of ways. Heck, after a while you forget all techniques anyway. They are really just tools to teach principals and concepts.

In the example I submitted, the concepts are to deflect and acquire incoming force (Defense), then uproot the opponent, disassemble structural alignment, and use compression to their skeletal system to make them fall...all pretty much simultaneously.

There are a variety of angles and positions one can take, that would accomplish this, regardless of what the incoming force was. As an example, I slipped a side kick once, caught it in the crook of my right arm. I shuffled in, in horse stance and fed my elbow over their collar bone and compressed it down. As he went down, that hand just kind of went onto the hero posture, only my fist was not on my knee. It was open on their shoulder at the conclusion. The opponents shoulder, on the other hand was exactly over my knee in between that, and the palm of my hand.

So other than the modification of using an open palm, it was the same identical move as I described above. I just used it in a totally different circumstance, with a completely different line of force.

A third application
Catch the same kick I did above, only with the opposite arm, step 90 degrees left, then in on a 45. Shuffle in in horse so you lift them by the perineum, and them using your fist shove down in the soft area above the groin.

They fall back into the empty place, and your fist ends up right above the knee, with your arm up. Same posture, just a mirror image of it.

These are 3 separate apps, for the same technique. All of which I have pulled off in real time at some point in my life.

let me clarify this in three paragraphs:

the original Chinese creators themselves have said that every movement in their art is both attack and defense. this means they have intended the movements to act at more than just one situation, for different applications. another thing, if you're going to view the techniques in this way, then you need an ocean of movements, one movement for every applications. no, this is not a proper view. every technique, you consider a Qinna technique for example, can have various variations under various conditions. here let's consider an example:

here, for example, you consider the simplest movement in all the Shaolin forms, the 'Buddhist salute,' join the palms in front of chest and bow. even this simplest movement can be perfectly used for numerous bone-breaking applications. like when the opponent has grasped your clothing in the chest, you can do this, putting your arms on his wrists and pushing his palms to your chest (as he himself is doing it now), and bow forward, his wrists are injured. then do you have to do this movement with the palms in touch like the Buddhist salute? no, you can interlock the fingers to empower your trap, you can do it with the arms interlocked, with the palms at the bicep of the other arm, like we do it while standing every day. and many other such ways. the last one, the arms interlocked seems much different from the original Buddhist salute pose, is this really a different application? all of these are variations of the 5th technique at min 11:40 in this video of elementary 32 Qinna's of Shaolin. it can also be equally used when the opponent has grabbed you with a single hand. then what will you do? it's better to instead of simply putting your palms together, you grab his hand between your joined palms, like in the 6th technique in the same 32 methods of Qinna video. the Buddhist salute perfectly matches both these, and any other variation of such kind. beside these, that Buddhist salute also 'perfectly' matches the 32th Qinna technique, at 54:50 of this video. though each of these applications demands a totally different forcing, it is in perfect matching with all of them. and this is because of an important yet simple point, that the same movement can be done, in principle, with infinite forcing ways. so this Buddhist salute, as just one movement that has the potential of doing those applications, can likewise be potentially used for many other applications. besides this, there may be many other movements that can be used for the same kinds of forcing, and so have the potential of doing these same applications.


all such arguments come from a common misunderstanding, i'll explain it in detail. the problem is that unlike what is publicly thought, in the major Chinese martial arts, like SongShan Shaolin, most the times, we don't deduce applications from the forms movements, but we first have the combat techniques sets, and then later learn/find out which movements in the forms have the potential of doing which and which applications. (i'll explain this in much detail in another post.) so when we analyze a specific movement in a form, like that 'sit on mountain (hero on horse)' movement you mentioned, besides the blocking and other applications that can be directly deduced from the movement itself, it has the potential of being used for, for example, n number out of the R qinna, block, take down, etc, applications we've learned. this way, one may be able of doing at least 10 or more qinna and much much more other applications with the same sit on mountain movement you mentioned above, like the case of the Buddhist salute i mentioned above.