Cirsus of Shaolin or not ?

[wiz cool c]

No, it must not just be one technique, this is too easy. The attacker must throw a combination, as many as the defender can handle. Usually 2 or 3. If one attack combination is successful he stops, doesn't follow up. This way we don't get too hurt and can train for hours at a time, instead of just minutes. It is friendly but the key is to really try to hit.

after the initial two or three techniques,the attacker doesn't defend and fight back, but allows the defender to work his defense,right? in ninjutsu they used to just attack with one random attack sometimes doing it in a circle with several people,one in the middle. well it is very interesting to me and something to look into.

[RenDaHai]

Do you wear a mouth guard? Do most of the others?

Do you try not to hit the nose?

Certainly protection is necessary. There are a variety of methods from XuQuan (empty fist), half gloves, full gloves, helmets, basket helmets etc.

Obviously the more protection the less real the experience but the more frequently you can train. It is important to train this a lot. When training elbows and headbutts you need full basket helmets like in weapon sparring. Clumsy but necessary, safety first.

It is something you need to work out with your partner. There is no official method.

[RenDaHai]

after the initial two or three techniques,the attacker doesn't defend and fight back, but allows the defender to work his defense,right? in ninjutsu they used to just attack with one random attack sometimes doing it in a circle with several people,one in the middle. well it is very interesting to me and something to look into.

No, he doesn't let the counter happen. It is like a free spar but with an understanding of who initiates and only for 1 attack run, then stop for a moment.

For a more complicated technique there will be a 2 man compliant drill to do first to get used to it. These are very relaxed and just get you used to the shapes.

[rett]

Makes a lot of sense, cheers.

[wiz cool c]

No, he doesn't let the counter happen. It is like a free spar but with an understanding of who initiates and only for 1 attack run, then stop for a moment.

For a more complicated technique there will be a 2 man compliant drill to do first to get used to it. These are very relaxed and just get you used to the shapes.

do you have any video of this? i do not clearly understand

[RenDaHai]

do you have any video of this? i do not clearly understand

No sorry. Think of it like 1 step sparring, but with combination and while actually trying to hit.

[wiz cool c]

but in one step,the attacker doesnt counter and fight back after the initial attack

[RenDaHai]

but in one step,the attacker doesnt counter and fight back after the initial attack

As soon as someone gets hit, it stops and resets. Like a mini sparring round that lasts just a few seconds. I don't really know how else to describe it.

[rett]

I like to think of skateboard kids learning tricks. They have so much time and go on for hours and hours, day after day, with a relaxed and playful attitude. It's natural for teenage friends, harder to create for adults.

[YouKnowWho]

You can't fight the same way against everyone. Everyone needs a few strategies.

You should use the same strategy all your life. The advantage is:

- Since you have repeated this strategy over and over, you can fix all your holes and make it perfect.
- You can lead your opponent into an area that you are very familiar with but his is not. That will be your advantage.
- You can predict 3 steps ahead while your opponent may only predict 1 step ahead.
- ...

For example, if you always start with a

- groin kick,
- parry your opponent's guarding arm,
- followed by a face punch,

you have covered the kicking range entry, punching range entry, ... Of course you can replace your groin kick with a foot sweep, but the principle is the same

- kick low,
- open door,
- punch high,
- enter, and
- do your thing.

By using this approach, you will always be the "attacker".

[RenDaHai]

You should use the same strategy all your life. The advantage is:

Thats a good method for matches, I agree.

But I've fought when I was angry, and I have fought when I was afraid, and I have fought when I have been calm. I can't use the same method in these emotional states. There are different goals each time, depending on the situation.

Well, maybe that is just for me.

Still, its a good idea to try a few and see what fits.

[YouKnowWho]

Still, its a good idea to try a few and see what fits.

It's good to try a few and see what fits. After you have found something that fit you, you should stick to it for the rest of your life.

May be sometime I just talk like an old man. The time period for "try a few and see what fits" was long gone for me.

[RenDaHai]

May be sometime I just talk like an old man. The time period for "try a few and see what fits" was long gone for me.

Haha, thats a good thing. I guess I'm still finding my way.

[SHemmati]

this is another part of the answer to the 2nd question of this thread, authenticity of the applications of Shaolin quan, and is an important part in resolving many debates on Shaolin fighters, which are warriors, which are self-defenders, which are performers:

__________________
in SongShan Shaolin kungfu and other major kung fu styles, movements in forms are not to have specific applications, but the forms just code the characteristics of that specific style. so it doesn't matter, you can use every movement in every situation it can do anything. so the forms are mostly prescribed to be learned abstractly, without restricting your body and mind to specific applications for the movements. applications are learned gradually, when the trainee finds out that the movements in his form can be used for such and such applications, one by one. the masters teach some applications, then the trainees can ponder on their styles and movements and develop further and further. the theory is that any movement in the forms can have infinite applications, for attack and defense, push, blow, throw, block, take down, lock, evade, deceit, etc, etc. besides the applications that can be directly perceived from the movements themselves, there are more sophisticated applications that are hidden in the forms. in Shaolin quan, these hidden applications have always been categorized into well-organized sets, which contain the prototypical versions of such precious techniques. i say prototypical, because each of these applications takes the shape of various variations from a form to another. even, there may be several variations of the same technique in the same style. such sets and their categorizations have always been developed and got better and better during centuries. like what explained about the kng fu styles in the reply to the 1st question, because of the various masters and monks and copies of the manuals that were teaching these techniques from generation to generation both inside and outside the temple, these techniques have survived the destructions. the Encyclopedia of Shaolin Wushu (scribd.com), as compilation of a set of those survived manuals, has documented and listed a number of these sets at section 32.1 (page 2), and chapters 34 (page 213) and 36 (page 417) of its 4th volume (scribd.com). these sets teach from the higher methods of foot and arm work to the simple methods of grabbing, to the simpler and more complex grappling, locking, etc, applications. every lineage of shaolin monks has inherited some of them. monk Shi Dechao has documented 19 sets of these in an instructional DVD series. Shi Dejun, Deyang, and many others have inherited one or a few of their lineage sets, this is Dejun's 32 methods of joint-locking instructional video (YouTube). many of such sets are taught via dui lian tao lu's (2-person forms). besides these, there are fighting strategies of Shaolin kung fu, including how to look, how to breath, how to move, how to react to specific acts, how to dodge, how to feint, etc, etc, which are as well documented in the Encyclopedia and many other resources.
such vast field of fighting applications and strategies are only found in Shaolin, Wudang, and a few other comprehensive martial systems of ancient Chinese styles. since these were considered secret, they weren't publicly taught until after the revolutions of the last century. just as a list, here's the list of such survived set in SongShan Shaolin quan:

Shaolin Luohan combat 108 techniques,
monk Jue Yuan's 74 combat techniques,
combat attack&defense methods,
combat throw&capture&grasp methods,
combat capturing methods,
combat throw&hit 40 techniques,
combat kick&hit&throw&capture techniques,
45 methods of capturing,
step and hit methods,
100 combat methods of dismantling the opponent's actions,
introductory lesson to lock each joint of body,
6 methods of joint locks,
8 methods of joint locks,
10 methods of joint locks,
18 methods of joint locks,
19 methods of bone breaking,
32 methods of joint locks,
36 methods of joint locks,
46 methods of joint locks,
72 methods of joint locks,
32 methods of escaping from the captures and locks,
10 methods of split and cut,
...
and a long list of other sets.
__________________

all the combat techniques in Shaolin quan either come directly from the forms, or hidden in the styles, which can be unhidden if the trainee learns these sets. the forms teach the strategies in parallel with these techniques. it's obvious that nobody can learn all the styles and techniques of SongShan Shaolin quan. it's said that mastering Shaolin styles and their combat strategies needs decades of study and practice. however, Shaolin monks have always been long-term students, which have studied for more than a few years, they've had enough time to learn and practice. but for short-term students whose goal is to learn to fight, the masters teach applications from the beginning. simple Qin Na (joint lock) techniques and general wrestling and hitting methods are preferred because of their simplicity and efficient self-defense. it's also usual to teach short drills and sequence from the forms to short-term students, to drill and spar with. as previously mentioned, performance students don't need learning any combat applications.
so, every time one talks of teaching/learning Shaolin kung fu and its combat methods, one must determine to/from whom he wants to teach/learn.

[SHemmati]

Then there is the old way; No forms at all...

...skewed perception of "tradition," they refuse to accept that in the older traditions, learning a bunch of forms was not how the arts were taught.

Actually, I got the concept originally from Shuai Jiao. Later as I was learning my martial history, I discovered that forms were never the major part of the curriculum. Fighting was. Prior, to at least the Ming dynasty, all styles were taught like Shuia Jiao is taught today. Additionally, up until the last 3 or 4 generations, MOST styles were still taught like this. It's only very recently that forms were taught first.

somehow right, somehow wrong. yes, unlike what we see nowadays, in Shaolin and other styles, fighting has always been the heart of technical trainings, in parallel with basics trainings and qigong&conditioning trainings.
but about the forms:
yes, there has been no form in the ancient times. but the Shaolin way was different. Shaolin monks made one early form, Luohan 18 Shou, before Tang dynasty (618 AD), and there are even speculations on some styles to have been created by monk Seng Chou, who lived even before Bodhidharma! then, after the Shaolin Quan Pu manual were first compiled in the Song dynasty, in 960s AD, the sets were considered as the heart of the styles, other styles that were not compiled into forms sets before those times were compiled in the Jin-Yuan times by Jue Yuan and others, before Ming dynasty. no-form approach is good for styles with limited fields of technicality, like Shuai Jiao, and also for students who don't want to learn so deep levels of kung fu wisdom. but the complete SongShan Shaolin styles and their clear and hidden contents have always been taught via the forms and their combat applications and sparring.