Evolution of Tai Chi/Chi Kung as Martial Arts

[xinyidizi]

I'm only familiar with xinyi and Chen taiji and I don't include people who just do it for health. In the styles that I practice training slow is for unlocking higher speeds and there is a lot of things that can be learned from both aspects at all levels.

[MarathonTmatt]

In my experience so far training Tai Ji technique fluidly:
-Improves body posture, body alignments (internal like the bones and external form), helps to control the breath w/ the movements, a sense of power w/ the movements (leading the intention of the technique), get a great sense of rooting, and shifting and turning (esp. in push hands), empty and full stance work (yin-yang principle/ action philosophy), and yielding, circling (ex: setting up for a joint lock).
I actually started my training w/ Tai Ji (Yang and Chen/ push hands/ qi gong) and it was the thing that got me going into training other styles like Long Fist. So for that I am very glad- I know all the principles I mentioned above about Tai Ji are present in Long Fist but the Tai Ji seems to make some of those points quite clear/ accessable.
Also I think there are some points Tai Ji can teach people that are found in all TCMA, but that might be lost (esp. westerners) on some people without the proper training- like a sense of Peng, the way push hands shifts and turns, etc. I know because of my Tai Ji training my Long fist techniques which is faster-paced has come out better in all areas of the training- techniques are crisper, transitions smoother, I never leaned forward or backward (a bad beginner habit) when I was learning say, a heel kick- but that is just my own experience.
YouknowWho brought up a good point- how long is the Tai Ji training necessary to get those concepts down that can be applied in any style.
I recently saw a sparring match/ competition between a CLF person and a Tai Ji person- the Tai Ji person never had a chance- she had a few okay hook/ jab/ etc. combos but she seemed to think "I'll stick my hand out w/ my magical Peng energy and go for a take-down" but she never got a chance.
The way I see it at this current point in time is if people are looking for health then yes, Tai Ji is great for health (blood flow, joints, oxygen, balance). If they are looking for a martial art, then it can be an important cross-training tool- take a look at Tiffany Chen (daughter of William C. C. Chen) she started w/ Tai Chi but then fanned out into other styles and is a champion kick boxer.
Those Tongbei/ etc. videos were good to watch, thanks for the history.

[YouKnowWho]

It's not really a question of how long it takes. Our bodies always get better and stronger, that's why Sifu introduces it from day 1. It's just one of those things you never stop training. So yeah, it all depends on if you get content with your abilities. But that itself goes against gong fu. Human excellence is never achieved, we just strive for it.

In the

- beginner stage, you want to develop structure, Fajin, body unification, ... (static).
- intermediate or advantage stage, you want to develop momentum (dynamic).

Since

momentum = mass * velocity,

Speed training is a must. Slow training will not develop you the feeling of momentum. To stay in the beginner training stage is like to stay in grade school and refuse to graduate.

[bawang]

Speed training is a must. Slow training will not develop you the feeling of momentum. To stay in the beginner training stage is like to stay in grade school and refuse to graduate.

in traditional longfist form is not used to train fighting ability. its used to teach you ideas. sparring is used to train fighting ability.

Also I think there are some points Tai Ji can teach people that are found in all TCMA, but that might be lost (esp. westerners) on some people without the proper training- like a sense of Peng.

if you try to use principles of push hands for fighting, you will never win.

[MarathonTmatt]

if you try to use principles of push hands for fighting, you will never win.

I think for the most part you are correct. Most fights will have a very hard kick-boxing/ scrappy-like energy to them. I think some push hands principles can be applied (shifting/stepping behind someone for a takedown, shoulder/hip Cao comes to mind) it depends what opportunity is there.
The one time I did accidentally get into a fight recently it was very striking/ scrappy, no opportunity to use push hands principles, I was just lucky I got a few good shots in and wore the other person out because I was more conditioned (I held back after getting those shots in because I thought the whole situation was stupid in the first place.)
I have been able to use push hands principles in sparring with some success here and there but that is another story (not fighting I realize.)

[MarathonTmatt]

I was wondering how Tai Chi or Chi Kung became a standard complimentary art of hard/external TCMA. Almost all styles CLF, Mantis, Wing Chun, Shaolin, or whatever offer this soft style/ internal martial art as part of their school curriculum? How did this evolve? Is it simply a yin/yang thing?

It occurred to me that at least locally, due to the popularity of MMA, more and more TCMA schools are now adding BJJ as the third arm of Modern TCMA. I understand this evolution, it makes them relevant and popular.

I know Chi Kung is said to predate Tai Chi, yet Tai Chi became very relevant at some point...any thoughts?

I also would say w/ TCMA, some traditional stylists don't like the labels external/ internal, at least when it comes to their art, I know this is true w/ a lot of older northern styles so yes it is a yin-yang thing.
here is a clip I found about the northern eagle claw style and Wu style tai chi training and why both are offered at the Shifu's school:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=271Tc...yer_detailpage

here is footage from the 30's from changsha- some stretching/ calisthenics, kung fu and tai chi are performed by both military and the women's high school group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocMJf...yer_detailpage


I also believe when the Ching Woo Ass. opened (one of the first public schools) around 1916? that many styles were taught by the teachers (of different systems) there, some of which was tai chi and other styles like long fist. so it is the cultural martial arts heritage of china.

seemed to be relevant to ur original question.

[xinyidizi]

Is there anyone doing live, hard contact sparring? (Not just controlled push hands.) Is there anyone conditioning their strikes, or training strength?

I ask this in seriousness, not to make any kind of point.....

In the 90's Chen style competitions were about taiji's grappling techniques like this:
http://www.56.com/u11/v_NDAyMjc1ODE.html
http://www.56.com/u45/v_NDUzNTQzNTQ.html

In recent years it is mostly becoming Sanshou with limited striking. So now we have push hands competitions(both fixed and moving), grappling competitions and Sanshou for Taiji.

[sanjuro_ronin]

RE: "slo-mo training":
Evert MA and even every sport, advocated slow and controlled movements at the beginning stage of learning them.
Its just common sense.
It teaches awareness, proper form, balance and so forth.
BUT the moment an acceptable level of "doing" is reached then "practical" speed is used, virtually always, why?
Because you can NOT move the right way if you do NOT move the right way, in short:
You will never be able to do a move with speed, power and explosiveness unless you DO it that way, regularly.
You will not be able to develop the balance, skill, and your body will not be able to handle the "forces" it will go through when doing it that way.

[bawang]

In the 90's Chen style competitions were about taiji's grappling techniques like this:
http://www.56.com/u11/v_NDAyMjc1ODE.html
http://www.56.com/u45/v_NDUzNTQzNTQ.html

In recent years it is mostly becoming Sanshou with limited striking. So now we have push hands competitions(both fixed and moving), grappling competitions and Sanshou for Taiji.

tai chi people can train combat push hands, but they will never train combat.

combat chi sao, combat form, combat shuai Jiao, combat gay sex, as long as its not real combat.

[YouKnowWho]

tai chi people can train combat push hands, but they will never train combat.

If

- "combat" is your main goal, you may not pick up Taiji as your prime art.
- you pick up Taiji as your prime art, "combat" may not be your main goal.

To me, combat and Taiji are like chicken and duck. They both speak different languages.

[bawang]

If

- "combat" is your main goal, you may not pick up Taiji as your prime art.
- you pick up Taiji as your prime art, "combat" may not be your main goal.

To me, combat and Taiji are like chicken and duck. They both speak different languages.

combat tai chi is like a chicken trying to fly.

[Kellen Bassette]

In recent years it is mostly becoming Sanshou with limited striking. So now we have push hands competitions(both fixed and moving), grappling competitions and Sanshou for Taiji.

So if there are people truly interested in training Tai Chi for combat, then why not practice the techniques at fighting speed? Do they only perform at real speed during a tournament or are you guys drilling with resisting partner in real time every class?

[YouKnowWho]

So if there are people truly interested in training Tai Chi for combat, then why not practice the techniques at fighting speed? Do they only perform at real speed during a tournament or are you guys drilling with resisting partner in real time every class?

Their argument is to drill in slow speed, they can develop 100% perfect techniques. Unfortunately some people felt that their techniques were not perfect enough. All their life they had trained "slow speed" until the day they died.

[bawang]

Their argument is to drill in slow speed, they can develop 100% perfect techniques. Unfortunately some people felt that their techniques were not perfect enough. All their life they had trained "slow speed" until the day they died.

in tai chi people don't even know how to throw a punch. drilling slow is the least of their problems.

[Kellen Bassette]

in tai chi people don't even know how to throw a punch. drilling slow is the least of their problems.

You say you train Tai Chi....why and how?